Bet you wouldn't expect me to say this.....
This is a response to a comment made by one of the earliest, most respected, and loyal readers of this blog. I hesitate to make new posts to comments but this time it seems appropriate. Thank you Interstellar Lass.....
InterstellarLass said...
Maybe we can take a step back, look at what we really have become as a politic, and see how others view us. They are allowed to have opinions based on experience and evidence too. We haven't yet placed tariffs on that....soon maybe.
Now, I have done a lot of soul searching, challenging my own points-of-view, reliving my experiences, sorting truth from the multitude of fiction pumped to us by the media, talked to many many different people and truly listened. This is what I have recently concluded, simplistic as it may be, I stand behind it and hope it some day may be a true focal point for a movement. Here it is: No more dead Iraqis.
Over 6500 Iraqis were killed in the violence that is due to our presence in that region. Our inability and politically motivated unwillingness to wrap it up and conclude perpetuates the killing cycle. Less than 10 american lives were lost, yet we were outraged at the carnage and death toll we have to suffer. Would you not be outraged enough to the point of violent action if your family, friends, and neighbors were being victimized and pointlessly subjugated? We (read "Ronald Dumsfeld") expect that "our work will be done there when the insurgency is stopped. Sooner or later they will be tired of dying." Does the american spirit include a characteristic similar to what we expect the Iraqis to accept? We expect the Iraqi citizens to allow us (imperialistically) to subjugate them for their own good...we know better than they do what is right for them. I do not in any way suggect that the deaths of the american soldiers were justified, and I do not encourage that in the least. But let's remember the beginnings as a nation...we were not born as a nation through peaceful nor diplomatic means. We fought back the British who treated us very similarly. Dozens of other examples.
How many people died under Saddam per month due to his violence?
Once again.... No more dead Iraqis
InterstellarLass said...
I can't believe that you would accept anyone making the comments Chavez made about the leader of our country. It's kinda like family. You can tease someone for being bald/chubby/ditzy whatever, but someone teases your family member about that, and it's on. I'm shocked Dean. I can understand you're angry, and you feel screwed, and probably rightly so. But I expected better.
Please. I am an only child for one. Second, I find that sense of protection shallow, self-serving, and hypocritical. Do we all live in that bubble of american delusion that I have suspected and accused everyone of? Do you all think that the world really respects our president, our government, or our "way of life" (I did not say 'culture' purposely because I maintain we have none and will never have an american culture due to the negating effects of 'multiculturalism'). I like freedom of speech, I like freedom of information, hell, I like freedom - personal and societal. So if we actually get some open and accurate feedback from a foreigner who is not intimidated by our political, economic, and military influence over the world...then so be it!!! Freedom should be for all mankind, not just politicians and the sheeple of america. We are not a God-annointed 800 lb gorrilla crouched in the world's corner, but we act like an 800 lb deaf, dum, and blind kid who needs ritalin with regards to our behavior and international affairs.Maybe we can take a step back, look at what we really have become as a politic, and see how others view us. They are allowed to have opinions based on experience and evidence too. We haven't yet placed tariffs on that....soon maybe.
Now, I have done a lot of soul searching, challenging my own points-of-view, reliving my experiences, sorting truth from the multitude of fiction pumped to us by the media, talked to many many different people and truly listened. This is what I have recently concluded, simplistic as it may be, I stand behind it and hope it some day may be a true focal point for a movement. Here it is: No more dead Iraqis.
Over 6500 Iraqis were killed in the violence that is due to our presence in that region. Our inability and politically motivated unwillingness to wrap it up and conclude perpetuates the killing cycle. Less than 10 american lives were lost, yet we were outraged at the carnage and death toll we have to suffer. Would you not be outraged enough to the point of violent action if your family, friends, and neighbors were being victimized and pointlessly subjugated? We (read "Ronald Dumsfeld") expect that "our work will be done there when the insurgency is stopped. Sooner or later they will be tired of dying." Does the american spirit include a characteristic similar to what we expect the Iraqis to accept? We expect the Iraqi citizens to allow us (imperialistically) to subjugate them for their own good...we know better than they do what is right for them. I do not in any way suggect that the deaths of the american soldiers were justified, and I do not encourage that in the least. But let's remember the beginnings as a nation...we were not born as a nation through peaceful nor diplomatic means. We fought back the British who treated us very similarly. Dozens of other examples.
How many people died under Saddam per month due to his violence?
Once again.... No more dead Iraqis
posted by Dorman at 22:24
24 Comments:
I'm sure there are other world leaders that feel this way but are too "PC" to express their opinions. Chavez has nothing to lose and the way I look at it, is telling it as he see's it. Thanks for the donation of 100 million barrels of fuel oil to our poor for this winter's heating season. At least someone seem's to be concerned about our poor and underpriviledged in this country. Everyone else is too worried about catching those evil terrorists and Al Qaeda. What happened to Medicare, New Orleans, Health Care, Social Security? Yeah, I'm talking about our problems here at HOME!
Do you all think that the world really respects our president, our government, or our "way of life"
That would be a resounding "NO". Once we realize that our idea of democracy or way of life is not for the whole world to duplicate, then maybe we might get some of that respect back. But when our government maintains it's current foreign policy, we cannot act surprised when people hate this country, the president and for that matter, Americans.
J ~ We are too worried about the innocent Iraqi's who were victims of Hussein to be concerned about the problems this country faces here at home.
Funny how we are not to worried about the 130,000 or so innocent iraqis killed as a result of our presence there and a number of them as a direct result of our so-called "smart bombs".
I still say you don't allow someone to come into your home and piss on your kitchen floor. He certainly has his right to express his opinion about our President. But how about doing it with intelligent rhetoric, rather than inflammatory, bombastic generalizations? The Devil? Sulfur? Come on Senor Chavez, I know the Spanish language has more eloquent phraseology in it's lexicon.
Dean, I question your statistics. I assume you are not including soldiers under the 10 American lives lost? Is this because you can't separate out the bad soliders that died from their own stupidity?
The fact that civilian Iraqis are dying is a tragedy. Sadly, you can't tell the good guys from the bad guys over there. And, I do believe that were we to pull up stakes and leave now, even more would die. What Bush has done to that country should be considered a crime. By removing their "leader" he has doomed that country to civil war until the next Hussein steps forward and takes the reins, most likely forcefully and with a lot of bloodshed. Bush's plan to 'stabilize' the region is a pipe dream that could be better realized with a bong and some good weed. We're there for the forseeable future. I don't see any way out of it anytime soon. I want to be done with that place and bring our soldiers home. But I think leaving would give the terrorists in the region a shot-in-the-arm, and that is more frightening.
Lass....
Chavez spoke to the UN. Technically we don't "own" the UN, but.....
I count all soldiers that died. There weren't thaqt many, maybe 2 a week, recently just 4 in a ied attack. And even if it were 100 it is still an unbalanced number. Hell, 3 people were murdered in 24 hours in Philly over the weekend but we don't topple Bush for it.
All Iraqis are civilians save the few brave ones that don the uniform, but they even fight like civilians anyway.
I agree we should have never gone in and toppled. But now the only answer I see is to do what should have been done after the colonial period by Britain. The country should be divided along ethnic lines and let each of the 3 groups self-govern. Then you'll have arguments about invasions, etc. Well, that exists all over but would still be easier to "secure" than the situation we have now.
First of all, since we are an 800-lb. gorilla is the exact reason Chavez made his comments. Not because he wanted to be independent, or politically incorrect. His comments show his intimidation, his weakness, and his vulnerability. Smaller actors will always attack the bigger players in order to enhance their position in any way that they can. Chavez believes attacking the US (or the president of the US) is going to enhance his nation's interests. That is the one of the top motivations for national leaders, unless they are irrational actors.
Secondly, his comments were not limited to the forum of the United Nations. He continued his little schpeel in and around New York...and that is why some of those democrats (Nancy Pelosi excluded) chose to come forward to denounce Chavez's comments. He made comments in their districts, and they defended our president, as they should.
3rdly, no more dead Iraqis would be nice. No more dead people would be great. And freedom does rock our world, and make us unique. I would even argue our freedom is a defining characteristic of our "multi-cultural" culture.
Lastly, only child...explains a lot ;)
Ok, I know that no one asked, but here’s my 2 cents non-the less.
Fact: His name is Hugo Chavez. He is the president of oil-rich Venezuela.
Fact: Hugo Chávez used his General Assembly appearance to call President Bush a devil who had left a telltale scent of sulfur on the speaker’s podium, he was acting in an old, if not grand, tradition.
Fact: In 1950, Wu Xiuquan, a Chinese representative, denounced the Truman administration effort to promote Taiwan, saying, “This is a preposterous farce, unworthy of refutation, in which Truman makes a mockery of Truman himself.”
Fact: President Reagan came in for a Hollywood-specific scolding in 1987 from Daniel Ortega, the president of Nicaragua. Denouncing Mr. Reagan’s decision to continue financing contras fighting his Sandinista regime, Mr. Ortega said, “Rambo only exists in the movies.”
Fact: Cuban foreign minister Roberto Robaina in 1996 took after President Clinton, saying, “We are facing a King Kong escaped from its cage, destroying and smashing without orientation or control.”
Fact: All of these statements were made within the walls of The General Assembly hall.
It’s a soap opera people, only on a grander scale. Try not to get caught up in it. Truth is President Hugo Chavez is a shit-bag. Venezuela is in worse condition now than when he took office and has been cought covering this fact up with outright lies.
It is also true that President Bush is a shit-bag as well. The entire world has gotten a chance to see it first hand, and unfortunately, at the cost of many, many human lives, ethnicity and religion forgotten. So one shit-bag speaks harshly and somewhat unprofessionally about another shit-bag, and in the company of a bunch of ‘really important people’. Well, guess what, not to me. In the words of Robin Williams in his upcoming movie, Politicians are like diapers; they need to be changed often and for the same reason.
Ok, I'll shut up now. :-)
another interesting point is something that I tried illuminating over a year ago and have always believed. Recently, some erudite published a paper on the concept that our presence in Iraq actually *breeds* resistance and gives the jihadists fuel for their fire.
Brilliant, wonder how many nights he stayed up figuring that out.
A former translator appeared on TV last night and backed up this point. She simply stated that our interrogation routines - arresting innocent people, harshly interrogating them without proper suspicion, detaining them, then releasing them - turn civilians into insurgents. Duh. But I am glad someone finally has the guts to say it publicly.
My point though is the subtle / not-so-subtle message in this now that is laying the foundation for what many of you argued with me about: That innately this IS a war against Islam and is Islam itself that is defining that. We stepped in a big pile of doo-doo because being so full of ourselves in our western mindset and "everyone is equal" mindset, we forgot that some people live entirely differently, in cultures that BREED different cognition and conceptualization. We have been drawn in from the beginning to be the patsy in the religious war which is the fundamentals of Islam. These fighters today are not the radicals, they are muslims that have been provoked long enough and have finally decided to take action. That is why Rumsfeld's remarks regarding the end of the war are so retarded. They won't ever get tired of dying for their cause. That is their purpose as muslims.
We may not outwardly say that we want a war on islam, but we will get one indeed.
Now, I alluded to interrogation above. I believe that we should do whatever it takes to get the info we need from those that have the information. Reasonable suspicion is sufficient to me, looking suspicious is not.
But the whole argument over tortue and our interrogation techniques is moot anyway. Silly bastards that argue over things that aren't even important. What do I mean? Well, I will just say that most of the interrogations that took place while I was there were not solely handled by our troops. We didn't torture....we didn't have to.
Off-topic: Dean I saw your quiz at http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/toys/namegen/6069 and I got to wonder: you couldn't come up with something more original than "Leader of Those Whose Limbs are Radiant"? How about "Suicide-bombing fanatics of the Quran"? Meanwhile I'm trying to figure out if you are some kind of the-world-hates-us-oh-woe Democrat.
keep trying the test.
and no, not a democrat, I transcend the retarded political sense of the american system.
The world dislikes us because of all the trouble and angst we have created since WWII. Do some research into our anti-democracy campaigns and coups we orchestrated and effected in South America and Africa. Lots to look into. Plus acting like jackasses that create and fight our own fears and realities irregardless of the rest of the people on earth tends to make people shake their heads in disbelief.
A friend asked me to read and comment on this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15023658/
I don't think it warrants a whole new post but maybe it will after my comments. Here they are as emailed to her:
Well, he is trying simply to cover up his cowardice with a legimate reason. If truly he felt it immoral and wanted out, he had plenty of time before deployment warning orders were read, that he could have pursued a more adventageous path. And, I think that all female soldiers that get pregnant after the warning order for deployment is read should be subject to the same UCMJ that males like this guy is.
Truth, this war is illegitimate. Truth, there are easier and proper ways to "get out of it". Truth, this guy did the wrong thing for a right cause and now he's pinched. Truth, he did the right thing by turning himself in, hard to profess motivations based on morality when living as an outlaw.
Totally and completely off topic here:
We all can rest easy now; Dean and I found a mate for that 800-lb. Gorilla last night.
what? umm, a mate for the 800lb. gorilla? im confused
one way to take that is that there were some extremely large women at the club last night.
Large, hairy women? You sure you were at the right club and not a 'bear den'? ;)
I think the banter on this blog is interesting and entertaining. Having read for awhile now I feel as though I need post a comment, a sort of reminder of sorts. Here goes, people have been killing other people forever. Some for "good" reasons and some for not so good reasons. Why do we feel the need to help "by killng so many" I do not know. The America bashing comments made by Amermicans are little more than ungrateful comments a child makes to his or her parents. I am not argueing facts or claiming any virture for our government. Just pointing out that we have opportunities for a very high quality of life here that many others do not have. I am sure some do have the same opportunites but many do not. We are a corrupt and dishonest government. But to bash ourselves only makes us look ungrateful and self rightous.
I accept his comments but don't place much value in them. Bush is evil, but there is no devil.
Anonymous said... people have been killing other people forever. Some for "good" reasons and some for not so good reasons. Why do we feel the need to help "by killng so many" I do not know.
OH OH I know this one!!! Its because some people or groups of people deserve it :) Kind of like the Mormans and the Jehova Witnesses, Muslims, Hindu, Jews and Christians :) I should probably include a bunch more can't get them all.
If I was president I'd declare war on the Bahamas or the Caribean :) Not some god forsaken desert. It would be perfect, thge american populous could bitch whine moan groan and complain that we are at war and our troops could get more time off than they normally have. I would have prefered to work my 15 minutes a week in the Bahamas. I would have annoyed Dorman when I sang "If you Like Pina Coladas" instead of singing "Sunshine on my Shoulders".
Lets face it America rocks well... not nearly as much as Europe did but that was becase of the cheep beer that tastes good and gorgeous and BETTER women. Thats why I don't like Islam, they stand for everything that I don't stand for. BOOZE and GOOD looking women.
Oh by the way has anyone seen the movie Team America, I'm selling tee shirts that say "America Fuck Yeah" on the front and "Coming Again To Save the Motherfucking Day Yeah" on the back. I also got tee shirts that have "Baka laka Muhummad Jihad"
"Lets face it America rocks well... not nearly as much as Europe did but that was becase of the cheep beer that tastes good and gorgeous and BETTER women."
I couldn't agree more. :)
SpiderLord;
I hope one day to meet you on some street corner. You're cool.
what, nothing on North Korea acquiring the bomb?
come now, dean. i expected better of you :)
Hey! No fair stealing my expectations! :P
Yes! How 'bout it Dean! What is the official disillusioned opinion regarding the North Korean nuclear test?
Dude,
You've jumped the shark. I haven't been here in quite some time but you've lost your shit completely. Sorry about your views and hope you can find your way back to sanity.
Dean you jumped a shark, cool!!! You could be the next crocidille hunter. :)
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