Sunday, May 22, 2005

Boiling Frogs

Looking back on American History, many of us can easily remember the famous wars we have fought Gulf War, Viet Nam, WWI, WWII, Civil War, Revolutionary War. But taking a more academic look, one will find that in the history of America as a recognized nation, it is difficult to find a decade that is without conflict. Through the Gulf War, we Americans have focused on fighting a traditional type conflict; well-defined enemies, political motivations, clear territorial lines, a declaration of war and a declaration of peace. Since the Gulf War, we have become mired in a new sensibiltiy of armed conflict. You can't call it war anymore since the only similarity are the casualties produced. Our motives have become convoluted, our leaders displaying less interest in moving America into a time of domestic equilibrium while becoming more blatant in their self-serving actions. Our wars have little but a headline's worth of meaning at their declaration, and their conclusions are found only on government issued stationary. The war I am currently fighting is by no definition a war like any other, even Viet Nam was better defined. Statistically, this war was over 2 years ago, so says a piece of paper that allowed our government to generate some interesting numbers like a bar bat between friends on who could kick Saddam's ass more efficiently. This war, when it was officially considered a war, produced less casualties than the Gulf War, was over in relatively the same time, and was able to topple a government while getting some good PR photos of Saddam in a spider hole. I guess this administration wins.

Previously, a declaration of the end of hostilities would be followed by an exit and or reconstruction plan. The Marshall Plan is arguably the most famous and effective. After WWII, reconstruction began on Europe. America played a huge role in rebuilding infrastructure (roads, buildings, power plants, etc) and governments. Our current war has no such exit plan. Donald Rumsfeld was asked about how long we would stay involved in Iraq. His response was, "sooner or later they (the insurgency) will get tired of being killed." I have been witness to our "reconstruction efforts". The current push is to "commercialize". That sounds good in conversation but how is it being effected? After 2 years since the end of the war, we have civilian contractors commercializing one of the largest bases in Iraq with high-speed laser based wireless networking and internet using the latest Cisco hardware. The juxtapositioning bewilders me. The country is near a stone-age level quality of life, except for urban areas, with sky-high illiteracy rates, incomplete electrical power grid, barely driveable roads where roads are available, no drinkable sources of water in rural areas. This is the infrastructure chosen to be emplaced now. The surrounding infrastructure off-base is unable to support such a technology. Maybe in the larger cities like Tikrit and Baghdad, high speed internet would be a good third-phase feature, but now it shines as a monumental lack of priorities. American citizens need to demand to know where the war budget is being spent. Eighty-two billion dollars and no one is holding the reconstruction process accountable for reponsible progress. The Marshall Plan took 7 years.

Interesting to note that our motivation at the time of port-WWII reconstruction was to establish 'free' nations, but not one government was modelled after the government we've used for over 200 years. Germany, for example is a Socialist Democracy. Germany has not seen conflict since 1945. Socially, Germany is very stable also. As in most of Western Europe, there is a nationalism that is the common bond amongst its citizens; Germans are Germans, French are French, without fear of their pride. If a German doesn't like France, that German doesn't have to live or visit there, they can go back to their respective homeland. We Americans have partially disposed of such sentiments. We are afraid to say it, guilty for feeling it. There is no American birthrite because we have been so shamed into believing that we owe everyone something for our past actions. Because there seems to be an endless tap pouring out reparations for past national sins, we've been split into essentially two groups. The first group is those that feel entitled to something for free; like a warranty return on the American Dream. Something bad happened to their Grandaddy and their lives aren't ever the same unless the government supplies them a handout. Their efforts go into getting more and more 'civil rights' instead of working toward and honorable and productive life. The term 'civil rights' has lost its preiously lofty meaning and been commonly used in place of the term 'free government money'. This group is commonly recognized as the hyphenated-American; African-American, gay-American, muslim-American. Hyphenation means they can keep ahold of what gives them the guilt-foothold on American society, but still identify with the rest of the nation byleaving on the predicate.

The other group, formed by our national shame, is the folks that are paying, quietly, for our demise. Whether they have been scared into silence, realized the futility of politics, or have been so programmed by liberal propaganda that they truly will hand over the farm to anyone they feel sorry for, they all fit the bill of the grand enabler. Inaction is this groups characteristic. Like a huge dysfunctional family, this groups sits by and watches the alcoholic parent abuse the kids in silence. Maybe it is the general delusion generated and spoon fed to them by the corporate media (notice the use of the term) that placates them into the cow-eyed stupor they sustain while paying increasing tax dollars to fund the first group, while accepting increasing numbers of American casualties with no apparent national gain at the completion of the occupation in Iraq, while they sit and watch reality on TV as the time honored institutions that society has been based upon are eroded to eleviate the shame felt by the extreme minority.

This is the modern day invasion. A social takeover of systematic desentization in which our minds, bodies, society, and our children are at stake. Gay marriage, child abductions, body modification, self-effacing guilt from 9/11, the bastardization of current 'civil rights' movements, these are all symptoms of a national sickness, the decay of an American Standard, our fear to fight to keep it. There is no peace when preparing for, or recovering from, an invasion. Ours is a social invasion by an endless stream of minority groups refusing to adopt the American dream in lieu of the American handout.

How does the American occupation of Iraq have anything to do with the social decay in America? Simple, it is the largest symptom evidenced by our depravity. A new, insidious, and subtle form of imperialism that has been widely accepted through the inaction of the American public. We have accepted the idea of an open-ended, money-funnelling, war when we were first sold on the idea of a War on Drugs. Ridiculous premise. Now we have an unwinnable War on Terror. What standard will that war be measured on? How is one identified as an enemy? How does a nation erase the ill-will it feels, when terrorism is bred and held in the hearts of men? We alienate ourselves as Americans by minority rule and endless hyphenations. The ethical majority has been muted with fear or shame, and our dysfunction has spread throughout the world in the form of the oxymoronic "armed peacekeeping missions". We are unhappy with ourselves as a society and are looking to be distracted by a common enemy. Those enemies, like bin Laden, do exist. But if he is caught, without that emblem of evil, might we have to focus on policing ourselves?


Blogger mattandriver said...

I find myself coming to the same conclusions in other situations in life. But, upon further investigation, the pieces start pointing in a slightly different direction. Sometimes I all but agree with the strategy after being enlightened on all the facts involved.

Sometimes people think that have all the facts in a given situation, but are almost ignorant to the whole truth. Is this the case here? I have absolutely no clue! But, just please assume is it for one minute. Think 'out of the box' on this once. Use your imagination to it's extreme and try to justify the things you are seeing on a larger scale. One that you are only seeing a minuet part of. In every situation, there are at least 2 sides to the story and until you learn them in detail, you are assuming the wrong ending. It is human nature for us to take what we have seen, no matter how sheltered of a picture it may be, and use it to prove a point in the 'big picture'.

Personally, I agree with you on many levels. But, you compared the U.S. with Germany. Lets compare the U.S. with the middle east. Pick any country you want. This region has been at war since 'the beginning of time'. These people were fighting with each other over land, religion, and personal issues thousands of years before the U.S. was even thought of. From a biblical stand point, the world started here, and it may just end here as well.

If you were to ask me what to do, this would be my plan. Pull out all who do not belong. Nuke the place. The sand turns to glass in the heat. Cut the class and sell it. Pave it all over. Then make the worlds biggest mall. But, that is not going to happen.

Remember the good things about the U.S. like Beer and Wings!!! Wings dude! Wings!


Blogger Crystal said...

hmmmm...looks like someone has got a point! you gotta a bit more competition dean michael dorman. ill have to actually read the post latas, before i leave a real comment :)

Blogger Saije said...

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Blogger SnotSucker said...

Ummm, you forgot one thing. Before you pave over remember to get that damn oil first!! That way I can continue to drive my environmentally unfriendly SUV to work each day with my rose colored glasses on and not having to worry about what is wrong with America while watching the rich get richer and the middle class get BOHICA'd!!

Blogger Dorman said...

The rich get richer because they work for themselves, or maybe because we pay $100 for tickets to a ball game. The middle class gets shit because they work to pay for the growing welfare class.

And the idea of 'environmentally unfriendly' puhleeease. How about the idea of common sense. I saw a woman driving a dual-axle pickup truck to wal-mart once. Why does anyone need such a vehicle to pick up some junk?

Anyway, the comaprisons to Germany and France are first hand experienceand also not meant to hold either up as shinig beacons, but life is a hell of a lot better in Germany.
The Marshall plan is the example of a well executed and mutually beneficial foreign policy. We came, we destroyed, we rebuilt, we left. But the failure here is that we all expect the Iraqi society to be something it hasn't been in 1000 years. These folks live in the stone age for the most part. What level of society did you or the common American think we would help build here?

Blogger Saije said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

The previous post was intended sarcasm!
Some wealthy entrepreneurs are worthy of their hard work and financial status. However many are not and feel they should be exempt.
I thought our country was based on equality? So why should someone that makes more money pay less taxes while the middle class continues to get the shaft?

This is why rebuilding in Iraq will not work. We are not concerned with their reestablishment, but rather the $$$ that can be made from forcing our ideals and commercialization on their society. I'm sure in the 1940's the shareholders and their dividends did not have as much of a say in rebuilding Germany as they do in Iraq. BTW where is the closest laser network to Pa?

Blogger Dorman said...

Guess I hit a nerve, sorry. But let's look at what we Americans advertise to the rest of the world. I got an outside-looking-in view for 18 months, and it is hard to ignore. I say these indictments out of great sadness. I joined the Army out of great pride before all this Iraq nonsense hit the fan. I also worked as a middle class guy and a social worker so I got to see where our money goes and how it is used. Let's not deny it. I continue to throw up the ugly side of America so that it can change. Fear of expression and denial keep the trend going the way it has been going. How would you like to have dedicated 5+ years of your life to a cause to find that the cause has taken an unrespectable turn? While I am out defending myself on convoys, or maintaining communication systems, the people back home are acting nuttier by the day, abusing and taking for granted the rights we enlisted fight for. So if anyone should be pissed off, it's you AND me. Look at the headlines, that's my homeland too. Support from people that believe in the good things America once was is well appreciated. But we're not in Iraq to fight for or defend anything for the common American. My wish is for every American to investigate for themselves what is going on here and why. Then make changes.

Blogger Dorman said...

Snot, I was hoping someone would have picked up on that when I wrote about the $82B. The fact is that there is a fund we can get monthly, $15000, called a FOO fund or something like that. That money is solely for base improvements to be purchased through an Iraqi vendor. How many Iraqi-Marts are near me? none. The major cities, which really aren't that big anyway, are where the vendors are. So, Haji sees the cash but has to run to baghdad to get the goods.

All the while, KBR is here paying folks $10,000 a month, yes a month, to be a glorified warehouse jockey, or do laundry. Paying insiders to come install bleeding edge and expensive tech on a low-tech base in a stone-age area is a little to obvious for me not to consider it simple money funneling. Most of the companies here are American. Many fall under the same parent companies. It honestly makes little sense to me. You've seen the video, people live in mud houses. In town, they move up to using bricks on the rich homes.

Blogger Saije said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

I presume you've lived in Germany to find it so horrific?

I also find it offensive that you referred to America as "her". "Our" or "it" would be more PC and less offensive.

Dean, you better keep quiet because when you VOLUNTARILY enlisted, our citizens feel that you should no longer have an opinion.

And if we demanded that ALL the countries repay their debt to us, our trillion dollars of debt would be wiped out, if not at least cut in half. Germany's debt is just a drop in the bucket...but if it makes you feel better about their country, I'll pull some strings and see what I can do.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Oooops, sorry I took my rose colored glasses off again :)
Or maybe I would do better with beer goggles, because I could kill some more brain cells....
Ahhh much better, they're back on now & I can again resume my day!

Blogger Saije said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Sooo, all those men & women that joined the military as a result of 9/11 should not have joined then...because they had an opinion and reason for joining.

"So if anyone should be pissed off, it's you AND me. Look at the headlines, that's my homeland too. Support from people that believe in the good things America once was is well appreciated."

Since when is fighting for what America once was so wrong?????

Blogger Dorman said...

Under UCMJ I am disallowed from making criticism about elected officials and officers. I have yet to do that. I beg for all of you to find info for yourselves and form your own opinions.

My oath also had nothing to do with relinquishing my right to think, speak, and feel. My opinion does not hinder my ability to perform my mission, and surprise.....I am not alone in the way I feel or assess the situation.

So, what I am supposed to take out of this is that when people "Support the Troops", they are really appeasing us so we stay silent dumb pawns while everything back home goes to the crapper. I am supposed to be proud of the child rapists that litter the news. I am supposed to write a blank check for my pride for all the perversion going on while I am sacrificing everyday for their apparent right to do so?

I gave up a real career to join the army because I was tired of seeing people bitch and moan but never making an effort to make a difference. I say what I do and do what I say. Some people quietly show support of people like me, some people vocally. I would like to see my efforts here, now, and the rest of my military career mean enough to a few Americans, starting with my family and friends, to make a change back to the better. The first step is an informed opinion.

Blogger Dorman said...

and this would be a pretty empty page if I remained silent in uniform.

Blogger Crystal said...

whoa, its getting hot in here, still havent had a chance to read it though, will do so soon!!

Blogger SnotSucker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Peter Jennings states in a recent ABC commercial that, "you are more free to express yourself here (in America) than almost anywhere else in the world." I bet he was talking about Germany, wasn't he?

Dean please come home so you can freely tell us how you truly feel.
As for the brainwashed, ungrateful, taxpaying drones of America; wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, eat lunch, come home, eat dinner and go to bed. And not once should you express your opinion.
Hmmm feels good doesn't it?

Actually Dean, don't come home it's everywhere....maybe you shouldn't vote either while you're at it because your vote will include your opinion and those of us back home will have to deal with the stellar politician YOU helped elect.

Blogger Saije said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Actually, it affects everyone. Someone is offended and they crawl back in their box, to continue their hum drum life and just exist. This is only a portion of what Dean is trying to point out.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Just trying to make a point. Many blog posts are made with emotional reactions rather than facts. Re-read many of Dean's original posts. There is so much more to this than meets the eye and we all must remember to look at the big picture.
Yes my sarcasm was intentional, and I was just attempting to point out how you're coming across to others.

Blogger Dorman said...

Let's play nice. No post should ever be personal, and I think we've teetered on it tonight. As for me, I don't take things personally so feel free to direct any question, comment, or criticism my way. I won't flinch, I invite it so I have another platform to respond with.

(begin warm fuzzy) I meant what I said about my blog and blogger friends in a previous post. If any debate found here ends up alienating someone enough to not return then we have all failed the principle of Freedom of Speech. I dearly hold on to that one. So let's get back to facts, information, and informed opinions. (end warm fuzzy)

Snot is right. Not to toot my own horn, but there are a lot of things in my posts that don't get addressed. Things I think are very important to consider. Now, please, on with the fun......

Blogger Crystal said...

drama drama drama

Blogger Crystal said...

you need to set up your own blog snot sucker and stop using dorman's as your own platform

Blogger Dorman said...

OK, I've read it 4 times nowand have to ask. Matt_and_River......can you clarify the points youare making in the first comment? What is the significance of changing the comparison from Germany to the Middle East? Deep down I think I agree with the whole nuke thing but they (those with the predisposition to this culture...ahem) have spread throughout civilized societies like Europe and North America. Nuking the land won't get them all. Flushing the Koran only keeps that particular book from corrupting a few in the future. (Can you believe I just said that?)

Please expand on your view.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger mattandriver said...

Ok Dorman, Side bar Please! Thanks.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

I aplogize if I offended anyone with my sarcasm to the point that they removed their posts from this blog. However, should a post be made such as the one that I responded to (that is no longer here), be prepared to take the heat and criticism. If you cannot, then maybe this is not the place for you. The point I was trying to make is that no one, whether they be a soldier, taxpayer, or a citizen of a third world country be told to be quiet and just do their job.
I was defending a close friend's back, and obviously made my point. If I misinterpreted your post, I am sorry. Be careful how you respond, because it can be portrayed in many different ways, (much to my chagrin).
Very similar to our previous dialogues regarding interpretation of the Koran and Bible isn't it? Interpretations can cause emotional reactions.

Crys, I've enjoyed your viewpoints so far and enjoy reading your posts. You're a very intelligent woman. I like the fact that you can "hang" and respond to the criticisms related to your posts. I was invited by Dean to dialogue and to help keep things going. I do not have a platform. However, I try to tie in issues as they arise and correlate to Dean's "big picture". I just go with the flow. I encourage yourself and everyone else to read his posts and responses more thoroughly and act rather than react. And yes, I'm guilty as well of reacting, as you can see today.
Keep up the good work and Happy Blogging!
P.S. I promise not to post when I'm in a sarcastic mood.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Enjoy Dean,
Someone that sees the big picture:

Blogger Crystal said...

time for me to "hang"

well,apologies are always a step in the right direction. and i will apologize beforehand. no offense is intended...let's just all be friends.

but its not just the sarcasm that is apparently the problem here. anyone can be sarcastic and witty. the hard thing to accomplish is some amount of genuiity in your motives. snotsucker- sorry i snapped but some of your comments are not constructive, i invite you to start a blog so we can all understand what is important to you and your life, besides your guzzling SUV. saije-keep your comments up, you gotta remember what you told me, and not be afraid to express your opinions, we really do appreciate hearing them. keep up the good fight! besides, i didnt get to read 'em :( ...some of us have to work and not blog all day, ya know :)

dorman-i dont understand you. sometimes i think you are rolling, and other times your opinions seem so contradictory to your own perception of reality. nothing is black and white, but in some instances it is necessary to plant yourself firmly in one camp or another. being a soldier does not somehow create an obstacle in so doing as you have shown...just come out and say what you mean, so we all clearly know where the battle lines are drawn. hidden meanings cause confusion, where none was intended.

my notes on the post

Vietnam Comparison- so unrealistically compared. I don't appreciate comparisons in general, but this one especially is inapt and too widely used. when you begin to frame your problem within another problem, a problem from the past with different circumstances and its own unique characteristics, you limit your possible options leading to a larger likelihood of faulty decision-making, and a poorer outcome than optimal. History is sometimes helpful and analogous, but you have to be careful in choosing which comparison and when. There is more to it than just the type of fighting to look at. You have to look at the people, the circumstances, the political setting of the countries involved and of the world...etc.

Vietnam-defined???? yeah right. The American presidents were completely reactionary to Vietnam. When something wasn't working they became deeper embroiled in the situation. the only thing our government did constantly was muck up negotiations. we were unwilling to give anything within the context of the cold war.

Marshall Plan-Smarshall Plan-that was forever ago, and not as perfect as you think it is. What about all of Eastern Europe? Why did we let a country like Czechoslovakia continue to be pillaged by the Nazis when it was in our power to intervene...not doing so in order to let the Soviets become heroes, and losing any kind of ground to influence the region.

on reconstruction in Iraq-great observation. and one that can be made because you are physically present, a witness to this. but please stop saying the American public is somehow ignorant because we cannot see what you are seeing first hand. without ever going to iraq, do you really think you would be rallying this battle cry against the transgressions of our government??? i am happy that you are doing your part to make the public aware of the facts of how well reconstruction really is going. we need to hear this more in order to effect a change.

government-i think that you are trying to circle around the fact that you really want to discuss the development of the Iraqi government, without really attacking the issue and falling back on the follies of history instead of tackling the topic(i can say that, being a history major :)

"past actions" -no we dont owe everyone something because of the past. we owe everyone something-mainly understanding and sympathy and help-because it is the right thing to do. but if that is too hard to stomach, then maybe for our joint future here on this planet.

hand outs- don't agree, won't ever agree, and i know it is fruitless to try to change someone's mind on this subject until they have experienced for themselves discrimination and poverty. and if you have, and nothing but bitterness and hatred has surfaced instead of compassion, arguing is even more futile. in your comment, did you say you used to be a social worker??

on the quiet american-i think most of us do enough talking for the rest. and when it is absolutely necessary for them to say something and fight, they will. but we all must choose our battles carefully to ensure success and not become wary under the stress of the war. and just because some are disaffected, their opinions are not null and void.

on the American dream-forewarning-you hit a nerve! on ethnicity-WHAT-are you kidding me. As a part Native American/granddaughter of Polish immigrants, this argument is both incredibly provocative, and completely ignorant in my opinion. The American dream is to keep dreaming, to not have to conform. What makes America special is its variety of culture. And I would take that anyday over the obesely obscene average uneducated, uncultured blankety blank blank blank. you know, when the war was "officially" being fought in iraq, one of my friend's dad thought he was being amusing...he said, "well we should just wait til Sunday and fire their mosques into the ground..." All I could think was "you stupid *$#&, they wont even be there on sunday" He is the type of mentality that we should be eradicating, not trying to speed up the melting pot process. It's completely unnecessary, and not the source of social unrest.

on your counter argument to this-you think i have missed it. that you aren't saying that equality among the races is bad, but that the methodology in fixing the inequality based on past discretions is what is wrong. that we should all be able to pick ourselves up by our boot straps and move on. well some can't, what about children in foster care right now? i dont know whose fault it is. most likely no one's, but that doesnt mean we should try to forcibly conform anyone. and if everyone was the same racially, religiously and ethnically, there would still be gigantic hurdles of inequality in this discriminating world for us to try and cure. ever read 1984?

well, after all of that. your raw conclusion is not too off-base of a realistic problem we are facing. just not within the framework you have given.

that was so freaking long!
night crys

Blogger Saije said...

I told Dean I wasn't going to post anymore and I'm not, but for reasons that I believe he understands and have nothing really to do with anything that's been written here. But I can't email you Crys as to what happened today, at least I couldn't find an email for you on your profile, so will put it here.

I was very upset with Dean's post today and I openly expressed it in a way that I came to regret. I do not want to get into arguments with someone in uniform serving in a dangerous place as much as I may disagree with his positions. It's just not consistent with how I believe I should approach supporting our military, something I have been doing actively through various soldier support organizations since the beginning of OIFI.

Perhaps once Dean's back in the states he'll blog some more and we'll see how I feel about disagreeing openly with him then.

This is just my reason, personal to me, and I don't think it needs to apply to anyone else.

Blogger Crystal said...

i dont think genuity is a word. is genuity a word?? lol

Blogger Saije said...

I think it means sincerity, that's what I thought it meant. I think it clearly does. I sent you an email.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

How about genuineness? :)
Hmmm my motives....well as I mentioned before I'm here as a "middle man"/devils advocate. I had never blogged before, until Dean had asked me to get involved. Frankly, I just don't have the time to create and upkeep my own blog. My motive today was to defend my friend and the Freedom of Speech. Yes, many of my posts today seemed unconstructive, but as we've read, they were in response to posts that are no longer here.
My first response today was cynacism directed toward a portion of what is wrong with the American society..."drafting" as you can say off of mattandriver's comments. My comments pertaining to money and the rich relate to the billions of dollars we are pouring into this country. If we were truly there to help rebuild, there would be many more humanitarian organizations involved performing the work rather than "contractors". Why can't we allocate these funds to the UN and such to rebuild, rather than the profit/dividend hungry corporations??
All of my posts pertain to the topics/issues Dean has listed in his blogs, although many times they are vague, it is for a reason. A test is not a test if one has all the answers.
I apologize if I do not come across clearly, but I know that Dean understands what I'm expressing.
I hope this clears things up a little. If not, let me know and I will be happy to digress!

Blogger mattandriver said...

So many issues, and so little time!!! Speaking of time, mine is limited at best so I will keep this short and sweat. As 'crys' pointed out, many of us have to share our time, knowledge, and energy among many different areas daily. Myself, I coach kids sports, work a 40+ hour job, and am raising 1 1/2 kids. (1/2 meaning she spends the other half with her 'mother', but that is another discussion)

First, to 'Dorman'... I am sorry if you did not get the middle east connection. I have never been know as a writer or public speaker. I used the 'Middle East' for two reasons. (Sorry for the numbers but if 'crys' go without proper punctuation, so can I.)

1) You are relating your point of view, at least in writing, to you're personal experiences. You are in Iraq, are you not?

2) The following is copied from your own entry. " Germany, for example is a Socialist Democracy. Germany has not seen conflict since 1945". If the Middle East has been in conflict since, well, forever... then maybe it is time for the U.S. to intervene. Then again, maybe not! What I do KNOW is I am also a veteran. In my short term in the U.S. Armed Forces, I have seen (to my best account) a total of 14 countries. This list would include UAE(United Arab Emirates), Iraq and Iran. I spent over 9 months over there in Desert Storm. I spend over 2 weeks helping a group of Marines sand bag a camp, watching Scud Missiles fall within 20 miles of my point.

Then, after launching what was to be the largest military operation in history, (I speak in lagististics) we slap Saddam Hussein on the wrist and walk away. Ever wonder how many Iraqis have grown to hate the U.S. after we pulled out? (ok, we never fully pulled out, but you know what I mean, I hope) I was like a family of children watching the police just give a talking to a father who just raped a nation, only to have the father come back into the home and do the same to his kids!

Anyway, I have spend way too much time typing this. Let's wrap up.

Does the average American take for granted what he/she has. You are f%$#(*& right!!!!!! If all power, water and government would be wiped out today, the average American would die!

Is the current situation over in Iraq being led by selfish U.S. corporations? I am sure it is. Please forgive the inaccuracy as it is late, but I believe over 90% of the United States wealth is controlled by 10% of it's people.

Is the U.S. in bad shape. YES! I think it is. Relatively speaking, we are a country without our own heritage. We are a country with a history of selfishness and greed.

Is there change needed, in my option? Yes!!! But tomorrow I have to spend my time teaching my 11 kids on my baseball team how to play! This, I believe, is where life is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blogger Dorman said...

Ok, mattandriver seem to have gotten my point, Crys, let me clarify some more for you. America is the GReat Metlting Pot, not the Great Jumbalaya. So ethnicity, race, previous culture should all go right out the window when you cross the border and become a resident of the USA. My reference to France and Germany seems to be greatly taken out of context. My point was that if you are German in France and don't like France, you go back to Germany. The German-French don't start a Special Interest Group and wrestle politic power for civil rights away from the French. So somewhere along the lines it was dreamed that when Americans come to the shores to become citizens, they give up their previous nationalities, cultures, and languages to become American. Makes sense to me, but maybe that hasn't happened through history. So what then is the solution? I don't think any country can survive if it is so divided.

Crys, I don't draw conclusions for people, I point out information and hope it sparks the desire to find out individually what the answer is, to form own opinions. I post what I see, some of it is on a big picture political / social level. Some of it is on a small picture personal experience level. If I seem to contradict, take frame of reference into account.

If most Americans aren't silent and passive on these topics then one must assume that they condone or promote them. Maybe they do and I just never picked up on it. Maybe I am the vocal minority.

Oh, and just because anyone was born with a certain genetic makeup doesn't earn them special priveleges. Sorry, my line is this; unless you first-hand experienced the suffering, give it up and build your own future. History is just that, the past, and until we can look at ourselves as just humans, instead of hyphenateds or a color, until we can stop planting the seeds of discontent in our childrens' minds at school, we will never get past our differences.

Blogger Dorman said...

A history lesson on why I hold such things important.

According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions because of a loss of civic virtue among its citizens. They had become lazy and soft, outsourcing their duties to defend their Empire to barbarian mercenaries, who then became so numerous and ingrained that they were then able to easily take over the Empire. Romans, he believed, had become effeminate, unwilling to live the military lifestyle.

From the Wikipedia

I am not espousing everyone get 'macho', but please see the point of it all.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Thank you mattandriver!!!
It's nice to see someone that took off their rose colored glasses!

Blogger Crystal said...

see, mattanddriver makes good points. points that i agree with.

but that is not what you said dorman. and i don't believe people automatically give up their nationalities when they become an American citizen. the differences are not what we need to get past, but the close-mindedness and refusal to understand the differences, and move on. i ignored the comment earlier about the koran, but your unwillingness to understand their faith is a difference many have not gotten past. you have to understand that extermination, even though this is still the wrong path, is impossible. we are in a position where we must understand, we must find common ground, and we must do what we can for others in order to survive.

history is subjective. information is subjective. some say the Roman Empire fell because it was an archaic institution that had outgrown its rule being overstretched over its many conquered peoples. the loss of "civic virtue" might have been secondary to the loss of control over an area that had stretched past its limitations. I think all empires must rise and fall, including our modern day one, nothing can last forever, whether good or bad. maybe it was just time.

i wanted to say that i could survive in the conditions you have just laid out, i was raised to be independent and self reliant. but then again, there is a disassembled table still laying on the floor of my new apt because i can't put it together. :)damn dependent Americans...

mattanddriver...punctuation, spelling, and correct grammar can go out the window as far as im long as everyone continues to get my drift. i write too many papers for me to be overly concerned about this here, besides, saves time.

firmly planting the rose-colored glasses back on! j/k

Blogger Dorman said...

Once again, I am so glad you are part of this discussion, Crys, I truly respect you.

But now for your opinions :)

1) "and i don't believe people automatically give up their nationalities when they become an American citizen"

They should, else why leave the country and culture you came from to be here? If the old culture is worth hanging on to, then stay home.

2) "but your unwillingness to understand their faith is a difference many have not gotten past. you have to understand that extermination, even though this is still the wrong path, is impossible. we are in a position where we must understand, we must find common ground, and we must do what we can for others in order to survive."

Ok, honestly, why must we? We can survive by rejecting a plague that is infesting the entire world. Sweden recently wrote an article decrying the woes of having large middle-easter muslims moving in and taking over towns, bogging down their social systems because they are antithetical to Swedish culture and refuse to assimilate or contribute. How about Islam needs to come into the 21st century instead of forcing the rest of the world to accept a culture from 1000 ad?

3) On one hand you want peace,love, and a big warm hug around their bigotted necks (muslims), but then you praise mattandriver's opinion that we nuke the whole freakin' place. And I am the one that contradicts myself?

And one additional thing that I was pondering today while sitting in the 120 degree sun, our national idea of what a bad religion really is. I may do a relatively short blog entry in a bit because it is slightly past this topic, so be prepared.

Blogger Dorman said...


This is what happens when previous cultures are not relinquished.

BTW, my ancestors came over on the boat too. Big deal, where is the Italian-American Gimme-Gimme Fund? Oh, that's right, we left Italia behind.

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Here is a little more in depth article related to your Jumbalaya link.

I do not have a tolerance for people that come to our country, regardless of their cultural background, looking for a handout. My ancestors and present family members worked for their American Dream, as should everyone else. We are the land of opportunity, but only if one chooses to seize it. If your too lazy to seize the opportunities available to you, this does not seem like a great country after all. Why should an entire country cater to one culture? Why do we have to change our labels on foods, and the marketing of products we buy everyday? Why can't one learn our language while living in our country? Radio stations with cultural based content are great. I'm not forced to listen to it. Speak your language at home to retain your cultural heritage. But in the workplace and real world, one should be able to assimilate. If you cannot, do not expect that we owe you anything. Everyone is just as free to go home as they are to come here.
My great grandparents came from Germany. Yes, Germany. They spoke German, but also learned English. They assimilated, but did not lose their heritage...
Culture and heritage can be maintained without feeling that you're owed something because of who you are.

Blogger mattandriver said...

crys... The punctuation thing was a joke. I am guilty of not taking life too seriously. It is, at time, not a good thing. :-)

Blogger Dorman said...

Please Read

What's the problem? Doesn't she know she's Black? Something wrong with being Black? Seems like she's ashamed of being Black,she didn't want anyone to notice.

When you go to a football game and there is some fan dressed up with one of those big huge foam cowboy hats on, you never hear anyone say, "Hey! Look at that guy over there with the glasses on."

This strengthens my point that "racism" in America has gone too far, get over it. Hell, in the Army, if we DIDN'T refer to people as "that Black sergeant over there", or the "White Captain", we'd never be able to distinguish people. Tards. I am pissed.

Blogger Crystal said...

totally realized i had missed this today...while sitting in my 30 below frigidly cold freezer of an office, doing mindless data entry all day long :)

first and foremost-dont agree we should "nuke" anybody. I was simply agreeing with Mattanddrivers points about us pulling out. I think that this is one gigantic reason of why they hate Americans so much...we did it once, we will probably do it again. why didnt the american public grow a concsience then, as Saddam had millions slaughtered?

and that the really important parts of life are not in this debate, but with those boys he teaches...with out family and friends. hope you come home safe and soon to yours.

now for the peace love and kindness. as you can tell, i believe in non-violence. not to say that some amount of self-defense and fighting is not necessary to maintain the status quo, or work to prevent problems throughout the world. not that i believe this is good either, i personally think the US should get knocked down off its pedastol and see more than itself in the mirror, see the world, because we are part of it. this is not anti-american, this is just an expression of anger at how arrogant we all are in the face of our own limited knowlegde in comparison to the knowledge most other countries have on us and themselves and in the entire world. i probably know texas history better than Chinese history and this is just dangerous. our ignorance is a liability and a constant reason why we elect inept leaders who muck up foreign affairs.

on the melting jumbalaya. there are many different kinds of jumbalaya-crawfish, chicken, sausage, shrimp, mixed seafood. and then, there are several ways to serve it, salad, rice, bread. sometimes its liquidy, sometimes its thick, sometimes its lumpy and bumpy. sometimes its super spicy, you can serve it hot or point-differences still remain in the melting pot. and we can all get along in the melting pot. i don't even believe in affirmative action, as it is exercised today. i myself have never taken a handout, or a scholarship based on my ethnicity(although i could have). why-because i am not the one who needs it. but i still maintain that there are some who do, and they deserve it. not because of their race or heritage, but in order to give them a better future. i just don't like your labels...

On the black girl

Census data on Waxahachie. Very white. Yeah, I have been there, its of comparable size to my hometown. Not surprised. Im sure she was probably one of the total 5 black kids at that school and the white yearbook editor didnt take the time to look up her name. we do use racial, gender, and religious identifiers in everyday situations, but get real. is that really appropriate in a yearbook?? that is the way she will always be remembered. not as a national honor society member, not as a varsity track member, not as the girl with the prettiest smile...but as the unidentified black girl. how would you like it if i called you from now on
Average Alpha White Male...oh that is right, you are :)

another non-angel

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Crys you apperantly don't see the hippocrasy in the US. People like Chris Rock and Dave Chappel make millions off being racist. If a white guy did the same thing he probably get his ass kicked after the show. We (Americans) have become too tolerant to everyones requests. We are too hypenated instead of just being American. America is no longer a melting pot, yes we have different cultures and religions, but these immigrants come over here and they want to change America to their homeland and not become an American, but they will god damned if they don't get everything an American gets. A melting pot is when someone comes to a country and adapts to the country and it society, but retains is culture. Its kind of like the borg on star trek they assimilate to the collective but add to the culture distinctiveness to the collective.

Why is it that African-Americans are the only people who bitch about equal opportunity and everything being unfair. Latin-Americans only get one day a year, and African-American complain that they get the shortest month of the year. At least they get a month. What about White-History month where is our equal opportunity. I graduated from high school not to long ago and you couldn't find one section in my social studies book that didn't have at least something about a great black man. Except in the sections about ancient China. I don't see racism, I see whiny little bitches. I say grow the fuck up, teach your kids that they are not second class citizens. Tell them to put the guns down and pick up a book. Not everyone can be can be an astronaut when they grow up. Would it make them happy if we(as a society) gave them all a record contract. Then where is it going to stop.

If we give African-Americans everything they want, then the Gay community is going to get everything they want, then NAMBLA is going to get everything they want and then people who like to have sex with small woodland creatures are going to get everything they want. Its a snowball effect. There has to be a standard that we should live up to. Eventhough it may infring on someones rights.

Here is a great quote for you its from MetallicA "You can have freedom your own way, if its done how I say"

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Couldn't have written it any better myself! I tried to but yours is better.

Blogger Crystal said...

i have a friend. name is Scott. every single day of febuary, he came to class and complained that his birthday fell in black history month. I say who really cares...the intention of black history month is to promote awareness of the present problems in our society stemming from past discretions. There is no white history month cuz us white people have everything else. So give em a month atleast for crying out loud. this is not said out of guilt for anything, but plainly for what i believe is fair and right.

chris rock, dave chappell, george lopez-they are all hilarious. oh, lets not forget jeff foxworthy too...he isnt making fun of redneck white people, no sir, he isnt a reverse racist at all...i see whiny little *$&@#$es too, mostly from indifferent white people. but really, this post was meant to be less about race and more about the definition of American culture, the melting pot. dorman wasn't saying other cultures should retain their culture when they came here. he was saying they should lose it. and that is what i was arguing against. the black girl section was in response to dorman's latest comment.

on the gay community-keep your "standard" to yourself, that is what America needs. Less people dictating their own morals to the rest of us. they are probably the largest group that discrimination targets today and we have yet to seriously touch on it. there is very little gray area for me on this topic. your comment was both disrespectful and annoying, and shows another one of society's refusal to embrace their neighbor and instinctive behavior to hate, even if you say you aren't, you are. It shows the core problem of where all discrimination begins. Fear. Society discriminates because it fears. It fears because it chooses to misunderstand, and this misunderstanding stems hatred. Its a circular path. Most people who hate, don't know anyone who is gay, or if they do, and still feel this way, i think they are being hypocritical. You can't "love the sinner, hate the sin" -its not a sin, and even if it is a whole person's life cannot be a sin. Ok. I know I convinced hardly anybody on that one. So, for you hard core Christians out there...I think I remember from Sunday School class somewhere along the way that Christianity does not believe in sex before marriage, so why do we tolerate that? It should be just as big of a deal as the gay community issue for you, and yet your senators and reps arent making laws preventing people from having sex before marriage. (Texas just passed HJR6 which further defines and limits the definition of marriage between a man and a woman...still has to get past the voters, but Im sure it will, they elected these officials, didn't they? oh, texas also passed a law that disallows gay people to be foster parents? how do you even enforce such things?) And for you non-Christians out there, what's your beef?

Blogger Dorman said...

Crys, du bist mein Engel und Ich liebe dich. Why, because we disagree so respectfully well. Anonymous got it. That was my point of why we Americans have no shared nationality. America isn't a rehab or a safe-house. It is a country where we should come together. Gays, why are they even a group? Because they chose a sexual actthey become a difefrent form of human? Every other group is based on who they are not what they do.
White people don't have every other month. The implication here is that white people are evil overlords oppressing the hapless masses. The masses are anything but hapless and white people didn't get where they are today by complaining. Methods may not be agreeable but ......

Now we happened to be talking today about 'The Black Girl', well she should have kept her mouth shut if she just wanted it to be amongst her classmates, because now the whole freakin' world knows her as the Black Girl. I told my friends my POV just like I commented here, her reaction was notone of Black Pride, but Black Shame. Like being black is a problem. Seems like only a problem to a few black people. As I was pontification at the HMMWV, another friend walked up and pointed out exactly what you did, that she was the only black girl there and it is embarrassing to be noted by her race. Go back to my previous comments....cowboy hat, didn't she think anyone else noticed. I msuppose if she showed up to her high school prom in her underwear people shouldn't refer to her as the girl in the Bra & Panties either.

Photog didn't know her name and picked the most obvious feature to ID her by. It was accidentally left in because no one else that knew her name corrected it. Wow, if that is racism today in America then we all ought to be standing outside holding hands and singing Kumbaya because we've made great freakin strides!!!

Blogger Dorman said...

Oh, forgot to clarify,my friends at the HMMWV were white and Asian, the other who walked up is Black. And sometimes when I am on the basketball court here I am referred to as The White Guy......why? because out of the 6 of us playing, 5 are Black. Duh. Why would I even be sensitive? I *am* white.

Blogger Crystal said...

you know, just because i disagree with you does not mean i don't "get it". that annoys me. but thanks for the respect.

gay people are a group because being gay is a part of their identity, and i think a useful comparison to our discussion of the American national identity. this surpasses culture, it surpasses "who you are." Being gay is a part of who they are, just like being black, white, purple, green, polka-dotted, is a part of everyone else's identity. im a girl, that is part of my identity. i belong to a specific group in society, as do you.

black history month does not necessarily imply that white people are evil...although i see your point in how it is used to show white people as the oppressors of an entire group of people. but nonetheless, it is a constructive awareness, one that i think is helping society prevent future racial discriminatory practices.

"methods may not be agreeable but..." SAY IT SAY IT -they were wrong. and if this is the only kind of retribution that is possible for the socio-economic disparities between blacks, mexican/latin americans, other disadvantaged immigrants and white people, then i say give em a freaking month.

on the girl. i thought we might agree on this one little thing. but i guess not. you were the one who wanted to obliterate a cultural identitifier in American society, so why is this racial difference okay to exploit. especially in this way? and im sure she is not the one making a big deal about this, im sure the entire school noticed it! and i plainly fall back on my argument that now she will forever be followed by this...and yes we have come a long ways if this is the biggest thing we have to nit-pick, but its still there and its still wrong. and if we cannot work to correct it, then it will stay with us.

ps. girl going to prom in her bra and panties should be remembered as "bra and panties girl because she obviously wanted that as an identifier for the future...and it will not negatively impact the reputation of an entire society, just her own.

and if you continue to write in german, im gonna start in russian.

твой ангел

мир в мире

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a grown man and I like to have sex with little boys were are my rights. Its part of my identity and it been going on since at least the Greek and Roman empires. As an adult I want my rights to have sex with little boys.

This is what happens when you start identifying sexual orientation with identity.

One of my friends are gay, the reason why I still like him as a person IS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T BITCH ABOUT WHAT THE WORLD OWS HIM

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a grown man and I like to have sex with little boys were are my rights. Its part of my identity and it been going on since at least the Greek and Roman empires. As an adult I want my rights to have sex with little boys.

This is what happens when you start identifying sexual orientation with identity.

One of my friends are gay, the reason why I still like him as a person IS BECAUSE HE DOESN'T BITCH ABOUT WHAT THE WORLD OWS HIM

Blogger Crystal said...

he isn't bitching because the world showed him some respect, as did you. that is all anyone deserves, and if they fuck that up, its their own fault. sorry for the language, its late and im slightly intoxicated.this comment has a very likely chance of being deleted once i sober up. im a sober blog deleter. hehe

and why is it that your first refutation had to do with little boys and grown men. that mental pairing just shows the automatic cognitive processes of assumptions that our society needlessly invokes when they don't have answers to the real question. Ok, so you know someone who is gay, and you think they are okay cuz they don't talk about the problems they face with you. and you still like if they said anything about it, then you wouldn't? if i said its not fair that cuz im a girl i statistically have a less likely chance to make as much money as a man does with comparable educational/experience background, you wouldn't like me? Try to create a better, more meaningful relationship with the person and see if they open up to you, then make your judgement of whether or not you still like him based upon your reasoning that he doesnt bitch about the social prejudices he faces with you. i bet, even if he said something about them, you would still like him.

Anonymous Anonymous said...

That is very true the gay person is very cool, I feel fine that he is gay. He doesn't make me feel uncomfortable, and I understand that its his choice.

He even has problems with gays getting married because its a sexual preferance and what would it do to a child that gets adopted to that particular relationship. The child would be very confused.

Anonymous Baker said...

I find it offensive the labels of the gay and lesbian members of the community, why don't we call them homosexual-american LOL

Blogger Crystal said...

WHAT! He has a problem with "homosexuals" forming a civil union and being parents???? that is shocking, and a little telling of how society's rejection of him has influenced his own outlook of the gay community. Maybe he has his own set of identity crises to work out. i feel sorry for him, if that is what he thinks.

Blogger Crystal said...

also, there is nothing wrong with calling someone gay in this context, just like there is nothing wrong with calling someone white, black, etc.

Blogger Dorman said...

homosexuals are a group because of action,not genetics. There are no homo-genes. How would they get passed on. It is unnatural in a darwin sense, so the only reason you've accepted it as 'normal' is because you've had it pounded into your head since your precognitive days. Tolerance is fear.

Where is the heterosexual lobby? How about that NAMBLA that anonymous keeps talking about. Great point, the North American Man Boy Love Association may gain political power someday then you'll have to choke that new PC attitude down too.

I saw a Jerry Springer once where a guy seriously wanted to marry his pet pony. Hell, they already lived as man and wife so he wanted to 'legitimize their love' by having a regular wedding, with all the fixins. So now I suppose you're against interspecies relationships? Bigot. Why stop pushing the line of normality back, hell erase the whole damn thing!

Blogger SnotSucker said...

Beat me to it. I'm heterosexual. But I don't feel the need to flaunt it. IT'S MY BUSINESS AND MY BUSINESS ONLY! I don't give a crap if you're gay, keep it to yourself. Someone passing me on the street would not know if I slept with men or women. They would only know if I TOLD THEM, or made an ISSUE of it! Don't create problems for yourselves. And don't give me guilt as an excuse for "coming out". You're guilty for other reasons, most likely personal strife. You feel you must make an issue because society as a whole does not condone this practice. So you feel you must force your opinions/beliefs on others for this reason. Because you are not the majority, you would be better served assimilating and going about the remainder of your day.

Blogger Crystal said...

i never said what makes a gay person gay, i just said its part of their identity. i don't think we can really know the answer to that question of why people are who they are. i just know that its not wrong.

and no you can't walk on down the street and automatically pick out someone who is gay, its not that obvious most of the time, the comparison to race was not meant to be taken that literally, but only as a metaphor for how we recognize members of our society. When I meet someone new, I don't say "Hi, Im Crystal, Im a heterosexual." Nevertheless my sexual orientation is part of who i am.

im not "guilty" about anything, although i do face some amount of personal strife on this one. i have very close family members who are gay, and growing up watching them deal with family shunning, losing their jobs, , and just all of this animosity because of who they are has strongly influenced me and given me a reason to express a view of open-mindedness with anyone at anytime over this issue. my opinion is not a majority, not yet atleast :)

im not saying society should condone anything. rather we should not judge others based on their sexual orientation. Not that I care if someone wants to marry their horse (though i don't think loving an animal is in anyway a comparison to the love we feel for each other as human beings, but that is my own personal opinion, that i will keep tucked neatly away from the limelight of societal opinions or what is right and wrong), but let em do what they want, its really none of our business.

there are some limitations to everything. child molestation should not be condoned in our society. with that said, why is this and other comparisons that have been made the first we jump to in our understanding of gay people. im not trying to force you to believe anything, i dont even care if you are indifferent on the issue. but assimilation to the majority is not an option, because i am certain, without a doubt, that conforming would be immoral for me.

i hope you all have a better understanding of where i am coming from on this topic.

Blogger Dorman said...

How do you determine right and wrong? Apparently when it comes to sex, you draw the line with kids. Michael Jackson doesn't see the problem. NAMBLA doesn't. So who's right and howcan ya tell?

Society must judge some things elseit fall appart to depravative and indecision.

Blogger Crystal said...

i draw the line with rapists, murderers, drug dealers...etc.

michael jackson is innocent until proven guilty.

always have had a problem with judging things, i don't like to :)although it is a necessary condition for a functional society. but so many people do judge now, and we all can agree that there is some amount of dysfunction in our society. maybe its because we all judge each other too much, too harshly

Blogger Dorman said...

I personally think a little dignity goes a long way. We have gotten used to airing every perversion and problem to be discussed and forced onto the public consciousness. Lots of talk, lots of politics, but what ever gets resolved or concluded. Nothing really. Just more civil breakdown and less rights for traditional people. The 1% rule. Homosexuality is unnatural by any standard definition, whether its accepted or acceptable is a different level of thought.

Also, drug dealers aren't bad, how can you condemn them? They just provide a service between the customer and the product. You can't lump all drug dealers together, some do it to make ends meet and put kids thru college.

Blogger Crystal said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Blogger Dorman said...

though the author deleted it....ahem. I hate that. The response was "Homosexuality is not unnatural!"

What planet do people come from nowadays? Let's get Barney about 2 mens' genitals fit together, no. Can 2 men Given a planet full of gays, what would the name of the first born be? Hmmmm. not unnatural.....

Blogger Crystal said...

i deleted it cuz i decided i was fed up with arguing


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