Friday, July 15, 2005

Waiting for the Worms

Lately I haven't been very active on the blog for several reasons. I don't find anything new and interesting to describe. I suppose I have lost a certain fervor for the wonders of Iraq, like I am surrounded by a wall and this is all there is.

I have been trying to focus on getting the final paper and final exam done for my Master's Degree class. They are both due within the next 8 days. Plus there has been a long standing personal issue that has weighed me down incredibly. But nonetheless, the tyranny of time drags me forward and things will change. Until something of significance happens that can break me out of the same conversational ruts, I thought I would just give a brief update on life here at Caldwell lately.

We have been under a water restriction for more than a week. That means today I was able to get my first shower in 7 days. Amazing what a person learns to do without and to adapt. I did discover that there is a way to bathe oneself more effectively with baby wipes. I found that if I drink a lot of water then go to the gym to work up an all-over sweat, the dirt comes off much easier than if I sat still all day collecting the dust in the air. The water restriction also meant that the main laundry facility was unableto do its usual 24 hour turn around. My bedding and 2 other bags of clothes were stuck there until yesterday. When I finally got my bedding back it smelled as if a dog had run its ass across the blankets. Apparently Haji stuck the stuff back in the bag before they were completely dry. Luckily I could hang them out in the sun and heat for a few hours to clear it up. Nothing lives in this environment, not even stink bacteria.

I have been relieved of the burden of studying for the promotion board also. Guess I am going nto wait a few extra months before I get my chance. No problem, I was pushing to be ahead of schedule anyway.

I continue to be disillusioned about the world around me and the people I know, on a daily basis. This war experience has been both an external experience that has brought the visions on the TV to my daily life, and an internal struggle of cutting through the layers of personal crap that has been there, programmed in or assumed, for years. Nothing like extended periods of isolation and pressure to turn coal to diamond. I am a much simpler man now and am knowingly facing more struggles in my future.

So that is it. Not much of an update. Still trying to overcome some disparaging remarks someone significant made of my blogging. It took the joy out of it.

103 Comments:

Blogger Ric said...

Dorman,

21 years into this thing, I know you've been disparaged before, don't let one person bring down what so many others enjoy and gain so much from.

19:45  
Blogger Crystal said...

your writing is beautiful D. please never stop. i feel so blessed to have found it. you have made me question what i know, learn more about what i didn't, and have given us all a glimpse of the life of a few brave people. its so much more than we could possibly learn from the news, or a book. we need you. we need to know what you see.

thank you for letting us know you.

thank you for sharing so much of your experience with us. good luck with all of your endeavors. i think a shower and some fudge would help ya much right about now :)

20:50  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

I hope you sort out your time in Iraq. It's unfortunate that Iraq is turning into a focal point for terrorist training. It's ironic how as soldiers for one cause you are all unwittingly serving the cause of your enemy. It's unfortunate that otherwise an admirable people have been so lead a stray.

00:22  
Blogger Dorman said...

I won't stop writing, it is just kind of rough right now to be in the mood for it.

anotherpointofview, Iraq has nothing to do with terrorists. Insurgents are not terrorists generally, they are localized thugs and foreign wannabes fighting for a cause. A wrong cause, but nonetheless. Otherwise, yes it can be tough sorting out the higher purposes of our actions.

01:21  
Blogger brainhell said...

The blog seems worthy.

14:13  
Blogger Karens Korner said...

I love your Blog...So please keep up the great work!

16:38  
Blogger Robert Chase said...

Dude,

I know I haven't been emailing or commenting as much, since my POS computer disconnects like every 5-10 minutes. Are you able to get on Skype or Yahoo IM? I haven't been on either lately, knowing that you are probably not going to be on there to talk. You know people like Joel and I are always here for you to vent to. I can't wait for the day that my best friend, my brother if you will, is hanging out with me at some bar somewhere (hopefully germany) drinking a few biers and just chillin'.

Btw, how do you know what a carpet smells like after a dog has dragged it's ass across it? :)

17:49  
Blogger Dorman said...

For now, Yahoo is working again. and I have been a dog owner all my life. Ever fall asleep on a sunday afternoon on the livingroom floor watching TV? Sometimes your nose lines up.....

23:58  
Blogger mattandriver said...

I like that song.

19:11  
Blogger InterstellarLass said...

Hmmm. Missed that the first time around. Clever.

I ejnoy the ideas and debate that you formulate. I don't always agree with you, but that's the point of it, right? You do a fantastic job of making those of us that read your blog think beyond the norm. I like to think of it as my daily exercise...in grey matter.

01:12  
Blogger Crystal said...

he's a trickster

07:08  
Blogger Dorman said...

watch out for me. sorry I haven't been on yahoo lately, finishing my class work up.

07:38  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

First of all, there is no one more significant than yourself at this time. You enjoy blogging, it helps pass the time, exercises the mind, educates some, and relieves some stress. If you enjoy it, JUST DO IT! For once, you need to do something for yourself regardless of what others think.
Keep up the good work!!

20:06  
Blogger mattandriver said...

Ok, I have been thinking allot about this and have decided to make a comment. Some assumptions have been made here, but I will do my best to be objective. Ok, here goes...

You have always, since I have known you, been your own person. Slightly different than the rest of us, but in a good way. By being your own person, you are not easily changed by other point of views or ways. You always seem to find your own path despite all of the people in your life trying to direct you to another. Peer pressure was not on of your concerns growing up. You were not effected by others in a personal way, like most people. This would be the average persons weakness. But, somehow to become your own as time progressed.

So here you are being effected by someone close to you. (begin assumptions) I truly believe in people being a product of their environment. More so than any factor. But somehow you have avoided this bourdon all of your life. You live on a different level than "them". Not higher or lower, just different. Again, you are your own person. So why take someone's opinion so seriously? Opinions are like A**holes; everyone has one but the general public does not what to see it. They have there own. (end assumptions)

My advice, if you were to lower yourself enough to take it, is this: Carry on with what you have been doing thus far. He/She will most likely see the light once you have explained your situation in person. And if not, than this becomes their loss, not yours.

Then once you are back home a 'free', try to make bonds back with your loved ones. Time is agents you as are others in at least your own eyes, but I am living the 'catch-up' game as we speak and trust me, you have a leg up on me.

Wings are still hot!!!

20:50  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

From what's on the news, it sounds above and beyound the chaos that you mentioned, it sounds as if there is a concerted effort to bring foreigners to Iraq for training, just as was the case with Afghanistan. It strikes me that US policy has fallen into the trap set by Osama, now it is caught in a similar quagmire that was set up in Afghanistan for the Soviets. Now, in addition to the well thought plans of Osama, it seems the flood gates for all that you had mentioned have opened up in Iraq. I think your blog is important, because you at least question your mission. The world is watching, it watches Bush, it watches the soldiers on the ground. We watch how you try to win the "hearts and minds". Simply put you are failing. Your invasion is fueling the next generation, of your enemies, you are sowing the seeds of your future, and the future of the world around you. A just cause, is only as just as the final out come. The world increasingly hates the concept of an all powerful United States. I am not sure you might comprehend the scope of this, not only in the minds of fanatics, but the rational mind as well, not only in the east, but in the west as well. I wish all the best, you do not seem like a bad person, but your mission does not bring good to the world. Iraq, will probably be remembered for being worse than Vietnam. This will be your unfortunate legacy. In these days, think well, write well, perhaps history will judge you better.

20:55  
Blogger mattandriver said...

anotherPointOfView: You have some good points. I respect you for your position. I think the U.S. is full of itself (to the rest of the world) and we do not even see it. But.....
Although we are a young country, relatively speaking, we can 'hold our own' and will stay alive. The reference to Vietnam is unfair and ignorant. Yes, we are pissing off the world today, but you need to do a little research on Vietnam and why it was what it was.

21:24  
Blogger Saije said...

I guess I'm off target because I figured it was about a woman. So of course intensely personal and romantic and all that.

If not, I can't imagine why you would be so adversely affected by someone's critique.

You are an American soldier. Nothing is supposed to deter you, Gung Ho, Hoo Ah and all that.

Maybe you need to provide some particulars so we can all examine your most intimate feelings a little more closely and analyze them to pieces. Since you have women readers that should go on for at least another 70-80 posts.

23:48  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

mattandriver. I'll the ignore the insult, because it's meaningless to call me ignorant, you might as well call me a potato, it would be about as useful. Here's an interesting read. What I got out of it was, "ideological misguided mission that failed on many levels".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_war ... by the way it's not a question of holding your on ... it's a question of not creating enemies ... but it's your nickel ... we'll all watch as China ... becomes the new power on the block ... or india or both ... while the US squanders it's resources on wars that it looses ... what a waste ... let me know when you find a WMD ... oh wait well ... we needed to go in and remove SH anyways ... what's the truth got to do with winning the "hearts and minds" ... the United States doesn't need enemies it has Bush and Rumsfeld to destroy your country ... but who elected them ...

01:16  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

mattandriver. I really do hope the US finds it's way in the world because. Your country has a great deal to offer, and of course has. I think your country has to step outside of itelf and see through the spin and orwellian double talk and see a lie for lie. In one of the 7 tours that Lance Armstrong won he was spit at and cursed by spectators. He did not stop. He was focused on what he was trying to do and was not destracted by those that would enrage him and distract him. Slowly, even the french are warming up to him, now as he continues to try to meet them. People, are not so different from nations. Show your strength with out striking at ill conceived targets. Be HONEST, and engaging WORK HARD, and your enemies will won't want to fight you they will admire you and want to be like you. Bush could learn a few things from Lance, we all could.

01:26  
Blogger Crystal said...

well, i think i like what you are saying apov, except for vietnam...

14:29  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

With regard, to Vietnam, I would be interested in what respect, this war was justified, and or successful. With regard,to examining Vietnam, I came across an interesting article,
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/6/26/175537/375, it voice the opinions of one a US Semator... "Senator. Chuck Hagel addresses more than 200 Nebraska American Legion members in Grand Island on Saturday" .... he makes direct comparisons to Vietnam ...

15:40  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Vietnam - once again from your own country - the words of your own former Defence Secretary Robert McNamara ...."McNamara Calls Vietnam Policy "Wrong, Terribly Wrong": Former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara, one of the key architects of the US's war policy in Vietnam, admits grave mistakes in that policy in his 1995 memoir, In Retrospect. McNamara, in his book, says that "...We were wrong, terribly wrong. We owe it to future generations to explain why."
... Here is an interesting time line of developments in the Vietnam war .... http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/timeline.htm ... if anyone finds anything noble here ... I am all ears ... remember, calling me names doesn't count as useful ...

16:03  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

The link didn't come at correctly here's another try ...

http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/timeline.htm

16:05  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

last try ...

http:
//www.english.uiuc.edu
/maps
/vietnam
/timeline.htm

16:06  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

another really good site ... again in the words of one of your own Robert McNamara ...

http:
//en.wikipedia.org
/wiki
/The_Fog_of_War

16:21  
Blogger mattandriver said...

I will read on..... For clarification, I have called no one ignorant. No personal attack has been made. There is a huge difference in thinking someone's opinion is ignorant, and themselves being in general.

Most of the differences you will find from Vietnam and today's so called war would be in the American people themselves. Imagine coming home from serving your country and doing what you are ask and told only to get spit on by your own brothers and sisters. I am not at all a history buff, except for past wars. I think I have read more books on WW2 than on computers. I also do not trust a thing the American media tells us. Not a word.

16:30  
Blogger mattandriver said...

anotherpointofview;

Some reading for you, if you will.
here

17:05  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

It's good to know that no insults were intended. As for the source given for Robert McNamara. I'll reiterate that those words of the Defence Secretary in office during the Vietnam war. If you don't like the internet, you can always read his book, or see his interviews in the documentary "The Fog of War ". By the way I am not talking about how soldiers are treated when they return homw. I am talking about a foreign army, causing death and destruction and not having clear objectives ... simply following orders doesn't cut it ...

17:10  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

mtd .. Thanks for the link, there were some good points, in differing the situation in Iraq from the situation in Vietnam ... but it misses the simple point of ... Americans in country not their own killing people with little to show for it but resulting death and destruction ... this is what the world sees America = Invasion = Death and Destruction ... as for his talk about withering on the vine ... Iraq is a fastering wound breeding more of what the Americans have sown death and destruction ... Osama was it's adopted child when it sought to bring in the Soviets in Afghanistan ... and now he has turned on the hand that once fed it ... like Afghansitan ... so now in Iraq ... a place and environment ... formed by the US ... forms a focal point for fanatics all around the world to rally to physically and ideologically ... there's simple rule about your enemies don't give them martyrs ... Iraq has become a martyr for these horrible people ... yes, there are differences between Iraq and Vietnam ... the situation in Iraq is something worse than it was in Vietnam ... because of the consequences ... they share however simple truths ... death and destruction courtesy of the greatest country on earth ...

17:42  
Blogger Saije said...

Does Dean still blog here?

18:57  
Blogger mattandriver said...

agreed.

18:57  
Blogger mattandriver said...

Sorry dorman, I have my own blog........

18:59  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

... naturally we all get carried away at times ... separate form from the message ...

19:05  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

... by the way ... yes i can laugh at the reference ... it was funny ...

19:07  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

... oh yes, Dorman, thanks for the space ... What are your thoughts, you're a soldier ... What do you think about McNamara's position on Vietnam ...

19:13  
Blogger Crystal said...

okay, i should have added mcnamara to my list...you know what im talking about saije. he was a genious. too smart for his own good. but i also think that he had his own hidden agenda. after, umm, leaving office under LBJ, he knew that the situation was plummeting, and he knew exactly how he would be recieved by the world, and the american people given his role in Vietnam. so i think it was really easy for him to throw up his hands in the middle and say, "we were wrong, let's go home, im sorry, but look at them!" the iraqi comparison is still ill-concieved in my opinion. maybe ill find the time to explain, if this discussion stays alive. but right now. no, so ttfn

21:08  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

crys ... i haven't read his book or seen all of the documentary I had mentioned ... but I am glad you have an opinion about him ... even if we disagree ... you made a good point in that given the situation it is convenient to try to seem to make for mea culpa ... but of course there is the other possibility that he simply meant what he said ... has anyone read the time line that i had sent ... the rant aside ... i really don't see what was achieved there ... i am surprised that the list doesn't rattle off ... do people really believe the domino theory ... after Vietnam won the war ... i don't recall any other countries falling to communism ... how about the parts about cambodia ... isn't ironic that it was the Vietnamese army that eventually did away with Kmher Rouge ... What was the United States Position to that at invasion at the time ? .... crys thanks for your replying ... disagreement is so much better received than ... unintended insults and pointed .. albeit funny jabs ... i'll try to refrain from the rants ...

21:52  
Blogger Christopher Trottier said...

Ihear they have nice ferris wheels in Iraq.

22:11  
Blogger Saije said...

Does anyone know if Dean is okay?

22:27  
Blogger Crystal said...

he is doing a detail??? i dunno. but im like you saije. i worry too much

23:49  
Blogger Dorman said...

I am back, thanks for the concern. Glad to see you're still here saije.

I agree a lot with anotherpointofview. I have asserted many times that the breakdown is and has been the unwillingness to a) state an attainable goal for the war b) have a realistic basis for operations here c) show $200 billion worth of progress.

I am currently an agent of disarray looking for some justifyable and noble cause to my sacrifice. I love the Army, I love being a soldier. But we have a defined and focused purpose for our existance. Lingering is not part of that definition and training.

mattandriver, it isn't always brothers and sisters taht spit on you. You know what I mean.

Please continue the debates as long as they stay intellectual and productive. If anything, I stand for open communication and freedom to express opinion. So please do.

01:15  
Blogger Dorman said...

and for the feminists out there. Read this and tell me that your tolerance of islam isn't cognitive dissonance for you.

everyone else should read that blog too, interesting points of view there.

07:25  
Blogger Dorman said...

oh, and just some fodder for the discussion. My two closest friends here are a Black Muslim and a Cuban Mormon.

07:42  
Blogger Saije said...

that can only be evaluated if we know what you are. Please advise.

09:35  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Doorman thanks for the feedback. I think it is very important for people to know that soldiers on the ground, are thinking, and have the ability to question orders as well as follow them. I respect the delima that as people who serve in arms face, on the one hand acknowledging the vital nature of the chain of command and, on the other hand, understanding the even greater need not to simply follow orders. That is I think, in great measure, a part of the mtyhos that you make reference to in the title of your blog. That, you have taken the time to fight in words, and not only deeds, I think speaks more highly then any bullets you can fire. Get home safe.

10:09  
Blogger Dorman said...

I'm italian, or at least that is all I will admit to. Theist. believe Buddha spoke it clear, simple, and true.

10:33  
Blogger Saije said...

Do you have an "even greater need not to simply follow orders?" (per one of your commenters)...

That's funny. Somehow I can't really see that happening too often. Even I don't get to tell my bosses to f--- off although they can't throw me in jail for it if I do, which I'm not sure you can say the same thing.

So why are you discriminating against Christians? just kidding.

11:07  
Blogger Dorman said...

because I am fair and balanced ;)

and not trying to discriminate or attack, just trying to find that comfortable basis that is common to most americans and is terribly taken for granted. Thinking outside the box again.

I don't usually get orders per se, since I am in charge of my shop and my unit tries to stay out of any mission outside our FOB (unfortunately).

11:38  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

saije ... I was referring to the general premise, that if your ordered to do something, like sexually abuse a prisoner, that you have to think about what is being ordered, and hopefully not obey. It's not about some petty desire to swear at your boss.

12:27  
Blogger Dorman said...

in all likelihood, those activities were not *ordered* but probably condoned. People get caught up in situations and things get out of hand. It is more a failure of the superiors to correct and discipline than rather them ordering misconduct. Besides, there is a clause in our General Orders which stipulates that we are obliged to obey lawful orders, not every order. We are able to contest, but you must have ethics first.

Now,on the other hand, a thong on the head...who cares. Much worse what the IA does to the captured insurgents even before a single question is asked. Remember Iraq doesn't adhere to the Geneva Convention. Hard to be intimidating as an interrogator if you can't do unpleasant things. Plus these are not upstanding Iraqi citizens that were 'humiliated'. They are imprisoned for some very good reasons.

12:35  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

dorman ... I am thinking more along the lines of the My Lai masacre, and the importance of being able to think, naturally with respect to a hman conscious, in general. In the case of the abuse, there, may not have been explicit orders, but that makes that example even worse because it means that even under less strenous circumstance these soldiers could not distinguish right or wrong. - My point was not to discuss the scope of orders or not given, but rather simply the importance to adhering to one's conscious foremost, particularly in the case when orders are given, but naturally when orders not presnt as well. - Obvious, one would think this was the case - but given the examples, apparently not. - As for, to "thong" or not to "thong", the question is how is this perceived by those you seek to win over? How is it perceived by your neghboring countries ? What is the political cost ? As for the methods of the IA, it's probably not the best strategy, in terms of future aspirations, to compare yourself to the lowest common denominator. Will have to take your word for why they are there. Because, it's all top secret. In the middle ages, they used this approach too. Justified, I hope so because, if this is democracy, it's a pretty hard sell.

13:37  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman, here's a blog from an Iraqi perspective. Perhas you can let me know what you think Riverbend

14:23  
Blogger Dorman said...

APoV, most Iraqis around here don't care about the supposed abuses. They laughed at Saddam in his undies. We americans are self-persecuting. I can't even recall any Iraqi raising a concern about Abu Graib until we raised the issue and suggested that they would/should be outraged. Then some clamor started. The decent Iraqi citizens know the insurgents to be bad people and figure they deserve the beatings they get.

And that is where the IA comes in.

Crys, heck of a nice new pic ;)

16:38  
Blogger Crystal said...

agree with your a b c's dorman. i surely do. do you think you always felt that way? like, say a month, two months ago, was this clear to you? and i am glad that you are questioning our presence, while still doing your duty and following orders and whatnot.

on the feminist link, ahem. it is outrageous. but, i thought your position would be, is it really our duty to interfere and change this, in a society where our presence is unwelcomed? or maybe im totally off kilterskilter.

apov-great points on the abuse analogies, and on the differences of being able to discern right from wrong, choice from order, etc. very eloquently put. i like

saije, i understand your reasons why, but i wish you would play more. its got to be hard watching this and not putting your two cents in the bucket :)

dorman :blush: thank ya much

17:40  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman ... There is a very different view of Abu Grahib, from the this blog, by a person from Iraq. Riverbend In particular she complains that there are innocent people in that prison. Regardless, inocent or guilty, common sense says, you don't do that to people. Maybe not because they don't deserve, but rather, because what you ultimately comes back to you.

18:25  
Blogger Saije said...

"what comes back"? hmmm...I didn't think we beheaded anyone at Abu Ghraib but maybe I'm not up to date on the latest goings on there.

I read reports where several Iraqis said that if we considered what happened at A/G to be torture then we have no idea what torture really is.

This is of course not really the point is it? No one thinks it was right that Lyndie and her goofball boyfriend were using the prisoners to act out their personal S&M fantasies.

But I am still interested in hearing about the orders Dean would dare defy on the basis that he thought they were not lawful, that word "lawful" being primarily inserted not to protect the soldier but to provide a basis for prosecution after the fact.

20:36  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

saije ... stopping referring to me as Dean.

20:45  
Blogger Saije said...

I'm confused...a normal state of events (because of my hives). I don't post here often enough to keep up.

I'm going to email the person whose blog this is and see if what I am thinking is true.

20:59  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Simply put, how you treat others, so as others will treat you. If you want to be treated with respect, respect others, even your enemies, and especially those in your charge. Why? Because, the world is watching, and it doesn't trust an invading army. Simply, put it judges, you. It is skeptical of your actions. It holds you accountable for the actions of your soldiers. It does not except passing the blame. Even your enemies, need to be afforded human dignity. It is when you trivialize the suffering of others, including the bad guys, that you dimminish human dignity for everyone. Your job, is to secure the peace, protect the lives of civlians, and prove the world wrong. Otherwise, simply put you have failed.

21:06  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

saije ... as for your second question - i am less concerned with lawful, as i am concerned with right and wrong - it is wrong to go to war on the premise of a lie - If I were soldier and believed my government was lying to me i would use legal means to protest my ORDERS to go to war ... if I failed in legal recurse ... I would except my jail term ... I would use that time to continue to make my case against this war ... If I were already in Iraq ... I would consider my legal options ... in a similar way ... no one should force you to kill for unjust war ... especially an ill conceived one that has little prospects of securing the country ... and rather just the opposite ...

21:19  
Blogger Dorman said...

Lawful is fairly simplified. A superior can't order me to jump off a building or otherwise bring obvious harm to myself. A superior can't order me to violate my general or specific orders, an ROE, or the Geneva Convention. A suprior can't order me to perform acts which violate Army policy or US Law. Really there are only a few things a superior can order me to do. And there are only a few superiors in which I must heed their orders. An E-7 walking in here can't order me to PMCS (Preventative Checks, Maintenance, and Services) his HMMWV. Not my job. He can ask, I can do it out of courtesy but he can't 'order' it. I can't be ordered to shoot FishMan without him first violating the ROE.

00:28  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Regarding the "bad guys". Today, it was reported by Reuters, that three prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, were released. It was deemed, that after several years, these persons were not "enemy combatants". - I am sure they must be thinking - thanks for update -

00:35  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman ... So what are your orders? Or do you call them somehting else? I presumed you wered ordered to serve in Iraq? Or was it request? I have not had a chance to read about your missions, but I would have thought your missions amount to orders to do x, y, z. If you don't have orders to be there, why the hec do you stay ? I have been reading other postings, but all I get the sense of is, that you at times wear body army, you get hot, and sent on convey missions, whatever that means, and that you rightfully told an IA to stop pointing his weapon at people, oh and you also carry an M something or other ... which translates to me you can potentially kill someone ... do you give orders ? In any case I assume in the military someone gives orders, and everyone not simply being polite and asking everyone nicely to do something, as a favour and afterwards asking for a hug :) If you guys did that, well you can do that perfectly well on this side of the lake. It's a lot cooler too.

00:56  
Blogger Dorman said...

There are written orders and verbal orders. Written orders got me here, written orders specify my overall reason and function while here.

Verbal orders are in reference to the detail or mission I am on. If we are building a building, the superior rank can break us into groups and instruct us how to procede. My Platoon Sergeant ordered me to do a detail yesterday morning, for instance.

01:03  
Blogger Dorman said...

ok. how clear does it have to be for some of you folks. They just caught a London bomber who did it because of a call for a Jihad, because he attended a certain mosque. How can this not be an issue with islam? Sure, minimize it by calling it radical islam....then we should have only eliminated radical nazis or radical racists. How radical was Waco?

07:56  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman Another great question. I believe there were generals in the Nazi army that did try to get rid of Hitler. There were several attempts on Hitlers life by members of his own army. No all Germans were Nazis, and not all Nazi's were there by choice, and actively tried to changed things. As for Islam and radical Islam I thnk a similar analogy could be applied. Or for that matter Chrisitanity and the so called "Crusades". Hitler was apparently a Christian, so does that mean, that he spoke for all Christians. I am not sure where your going with this, because I thought you had mentioned one of your friends was a muslim. In any case, perhaps, I miss-interpreting what you mean to pursue by your line of questioning. Still, it was a good question, becuase it raises an important need to be able to judge seperate, different facts.

10:13  
Blogger Dorman said...

The key is that the attackers do what they do in the name of something specific. Hitler did not do what he did in the name of Jesus,he did it in the name of nazism. Let's not be coy about it any longer. Our enemy does not deny it is islam vs the rest of the world. It is just americans with bleeding hearts and a thirst for denial that refuse to listen when they scream it at us. That is the most baffling to me....disregard for the obvious.

My neighbor was a nazi under Hitler. What was stamped out? The people or the belief? In europe anything to do with nazism is flatly outlawed, even a dish with a swastika is banned. How far fetched to initiate the same actions against islam? very feasible obviously.

13:04  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman The expression, throwing the baby out with the bath water comes to mind. One could have said the same thing about the Christianity, at the time of the Crusades. Further, your blanket stament, sounds like the kind of thing the extremist might say. - It sounds like your learning the wrong lessons in Iraq, instead of teaching them. On practical grounds, how would you propose to do away with Islam. Would you gas, or do you prefer a hands on approach.

What exactly do you have mind. Perhaps, a good book burning to warm things up. Ok, maybe you prefer something more subtle. Ban, Korans from the library. Do not allow Islamic clothing in public. Maybe to better watch these people, make them wear a nice yellow star ... errr sickle ...

Nazism, was a blip on the screen of history, born out of the hubris, who exploited, the fears, and angers of a generation born out war.

Islam has been around for a nearly one and half thousand years. It was born out, of the Judaism, and Christianity, progrogated through centuries of caliphs. As of 2003 and three there were a reported near, 1.5 billion muslims , spanning the globe.

Islam is not a country, and it is more than a religion, in the way it penetrates daily life. - I highly doubt, you can "stamp out Islam" even if the your allies were on your side. - The practical, let on ideological basis of your premises, are hard to phathom.

In other posting you had put up, you had Maslow's hiearchy of needs. I believe, in this line of thinking there is a much better chance of turning Islam away from terrorism.

Show them, that your way thinking is better, show them your way of life is better.

Sure go after worthwile targets.

But don't turn the entire mass of Islam against you, by saying you want to stamp, out their beliefs.

By the way, I know a group of people who like to stamp out beliefs. They, forbid women from wearing certain, clothing, because that's a western, thing today.

Look, in the mirror, because today, thy enemy is thy self.

Pick your battles, and targets well, achieve what you set out to.

Don't follow in the path of Bush.

15:25  
Blogger Ric said...

anotherpointofview,

I dig your suggestions to begin with understanding in facing the difficulties of the world. I might go a little softer on the...i'd go to jail stuff, but maybe you are that strong of a person. Keep contributing.

20:39  
Blogger Ric said...

can anyone tell me why my comments have a little garbage can underneath the time and no one else's does?

20:41  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Hi Ric Thanks for the feedback. My guess it has less to do with strength, than simply expecting that the right things be done. We only live once, it's finite, what comes afterwards, may come. In the mean time, we all need to think more. Back, before the days of WWII, people should have thought more of how to prevent the rise of the madman. Now we should think how to prevent the rise, of a million, of madmen. I suppose simply, I'd rather fight former battle, than the battle we face now. - Perhaps, Doorman has the solution, wipe out the beliefs, of Islam. - Them there be big fighting words. - Now for that, I think, you would have to real strength. - Lets, see they say to beat your enemy you have to put yourself in their shoes. - So, I suppose we should ask ourselves, "How long would it take for someone to take away your Christianity? Would, it take a week, a month, a year, tens of years. Would they ever, could they ever separate you from your God? - Now, you ask yourself, do you think your any more religious than your average muslim? - In many respects, the sugestion that Doorman has made, is already being tried by the fanatics - on us. Is it working? Do you feel less Christian now then you did before they started to say, that our beliefs or no good. - Well, perhaps, they simply aren't as good as playing this game as we might be. We can play, "I am going to take your beliefs away game", much better. - Probably, not something to be proud of, even, if you could be succesful. - Practically and ideologically, maybe a rethink, on this is required.

21:36  
Blogger Dorman said...

Well, APoV. Size does not matter.

The size and durability of islam doesn't justify anything, nor does it make it differ in parallel to nazism. How do you handle poisoned thought processes in the well of humanity? Like getting pee out of a pool, I understand. But if euope can enforce the ban on nazism as thoroughly and effectively as the do, then how can you say that doing the same for islam is nor feasible. We're not talking about banning fans of 'NSync, we're talking about banning the cult of destruction. They dare us too by their blatant proclamations of it. We refuse to even listen to what they say when they tell us their purpose and motivations, that is what I don't understand. It is they who proclaim what the conflict is about.

So, I am an idiot for drawing parallels while a group of people write nothing but 'aw that won't work'? I am pointing out inconsistencies in the common ways of thining. Yes Christianity has its problems. How interesting several of you assume that I have my point of view rooted in christianity, attempting to make me look hypocritical by bringing it up. Lame. Really. Your focus is misplaced. Someone else provide a suggestion to the problem. Hiding our heads in the sand and praying for tolerance is not a realistic answer. Nor is hoping that moderate muslims take contol of their religion. So unless someone else is willing to stick their neck on the line and submit a viable effective solution for the problem of islamic terrorism, or willing to sign up to join the Army and make a difference that way, I am bowing out of this conversation. It wasn't even what the entry was originally about! And I am realizing there are too many arm-chair politicians out there to make sense of. I promote free speech and a forum to exercise it, but I expect it to be fruitful and informed. Nay sayers need to follow up with a suggestion and not just reasons something won't work.

01:28  
Blogger Dorman said...

Try and buy a copy of Mein Kampf in France.

01:34  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman I think you have been more than generous with your time and space. So I can entirely understand you wanting to draw this to a close. It's been a great opportunity for me to hear your views, and the views of others.

As for Christianity, I used the example because, I myself, come from a Catholic background. For me the thought of someone trying to take away my religon and my beliefs, is something that I directly respond to in a visceral way. I would never, presume someone would have the right to try to seperate me from my beliefs. That, you are not Christian, perhaps makes the analogy less relevant. However, you can replace Christianity, with whatever belief, you hold dear.

As a footnote, while I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I no longer consider myself to pracice this faith. In recent years, I have pursued, my interest in Budhism. I had thought you had also mention this inclination as well. Perhaps, I was mistaken. In the budhist writings, my friends have given me, no where do they speak about the relgigous intolerance you speak of.

In addition to the Christians I know and the Budhists I know, I know Muslims as well. They muslims are good people, they are kind, and generation. They, are good neighbors.

What, you suggest, is contry what I would want someone to do to myself, or to those I know. So, how can I agree with you?

From practical, to ideological, to personal, what you want to take for someone, is simply wrong.

Just because, I don't have gone, doesn't mean I can't make the peace.

With perhaps, some irony, and then again perhaps, not. I mention, rather than remind, that some of the first Americans, aside from the natives, came to what was become the United States, because they were purscuted for their religious beliefs.

The Nazis, persecuted the Jews. Listen to what you say, and read what the Nazis, said about the Jews. Again, I see the difference grow smaller.

Simply, people reject extremism, whether against, Jews or Muslims, Blacks or Whites, or whatever you like.

Don't waste your efforts, on the wrong cause. Bush, seems to do enough of that for everybody.

They say, hate kills the person who hates. I imagine this includes a religon.

Even the Nazis, I don't hate. They were wrong. They were a clear and defined enemy, they could be defeated. Nazism, was fixed to a country, to a people. It was well defined, and to say the least exclusive.

Islam, is an idea, it knows no boundaries, it excepts all nationalities, it welcomes all to its club. It is more varied, than you can imagine. What on earth would you hope to take down.

And if you choose to spends your days taking it down. Of course that's your choice. Hopefully, you will spend your energies and simply getting home safe, and to the ones you love.

My guess is in the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, people will begin to loose interest in the middle east. There will be no more oil.

No, more reason, to be fighting and dying. Even the terrorsists, will eventually loose their strength, as they too will weaken. We are all human.

Those countries, like france who have built up nuclear power, might survive, better than thers. They will not have had the drain of fighting these, in the end silly wars. Yet, they will somehow manage to live with their ever growing population of over 10 percent of the population who are in fact muslims.

They, may yet negotiate a secular relationship with these people of Islam. Unlike, the failure in Britain. Perhaps, France may yet succede.

Take care Dorman. Try, not to go down the path of hate, how ever your beliefs evolve.

Feel free to drop by my blog anytime.

Thanks, for the reading suggestion. I'll let you when I am done.

apv


Take care Dorman.

04:00  
Blogger Dorman said...

Thank you for such an eloquent response. I was very frustrated earlier, not because people oppose my point of view but because it seems that people purposely avoid getting my point. I understand people do not like to have beliefs challenged because it makes them uncomfortable to think they have been fooled, or to have to rethink something they have held as unexamined truth for so long. I have overcome that through the years.

I too grew up Catholic and was disillusioned about certain aspects of it courtesy of a certain friend, Ric. I then pursued an Evangelical Christian path because in the framework the ideas were presented to me, seemed to make more sense. Since that initial disillusionment, I have not stopped. Feeling fooled once does not allow for one to become complacent on the cognitive processes that allowed me to get that was in the first place. I don't reject christianity today, I just find it insignificant in the culture and society I belong to, and in my life. After many years sorting through what stood up as truth and what was justification or empty cliche, I realized the core meaning. What I found to be indisputably true. That then I found to also be the precepts and pillars of Buddhism. Not that I was searching for answers and buddhism sounded good, or I liked the stylish clothes or the mysticism of the east. No. I found my ideas of truth to be in harmony with the foundations of that philosophy, and I didn't have to swallow unreconcileable ideas and mystical religious rites. Sure there are those rites and practices that have been layered on top of the foundations, but they don't interest me.

Anyway. Nazism is more than limited to white german people. Come to visi me in Pennsylvania some time and I will show you the new camp of the White Aryan Resistance that moved into a small town nearby. Nazism is an ideal belief, made religious. It is a social idea. And the Nazis killed as many or more Poles, christians, europeans as they did Jews.

My point has been this and it has been avoided....

Nazis get judged by the results of their actions. Their actions are derived from their beliefs.

Muslims do not get judged similarly. Their actions are derived from their beliefs, but no one is willing to claim islam as a facet of the problem.

There were many peaceful nazis. What did we defeat, the people or the belief system? Not the people. What is banned in europe today, the people or the belief? the belief.

So my ideas are not out of line with anything that hasn't already been done by civilized countries. And I take exception to the idea that I am now labelled as a radical myself because I suggest to consider someone else's solution to the spread of nazism.

Like I said, I can point out the shortcomings of the few proposed soltuions that have appeared in my blog, and we can discuss their merits. But making it a personal issue against someone's character is over the line. Not that you did specifically or intended to. Don't take an intellectual challenge as a threat to your intelligence (I mean everyone in general).

If anyone feels that I just am not understanding the point they are trying to make, like Crys did last night on chat, then regroup to gather info and present it in a different way. I am not being difficult, I am just being meticulous on the information that I hold as believably true. Crys succeeded last night, btw, in education me further on the fall of the societ union. It is possible if you operate on information and not opinion.

Also, anyone else want to come over and see things first hand? I can give you a phone number to help you get here with me. I'd enjoy the company.

Let's keep up the debate, I am very pleased to have new blood in these discussions...I just feel like I need to develop a different topic.

06:58  
Blogger Crystal said...

i think it is interesting that many of were raised roman catholic...does anybody else see the connection, or is this just my morbid imagination

09:10  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman - Thank you. Your position is heard. I will think about what you have said. I will stand by one of my points, however, - get home safe. - Thank you also for the offer, I may met yet take you up on that. For, now I am going to do as you had suggested, move on. I will get back to you, afer I follow up on your other suggestion to read Mein Kamp. - apv -

10:50  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

everyone else - In the spirit of my new reading endeavor ... Bisch Spaeter ... Until Later - apv -

10:57  
Blogger Carnealian said...

I'm posting the following comment for Findley Labrador: I read once that Lady Bird Johnson said that LBJ could not even sleep at night because of Vietnam. I would further suggest that people visit "the Wall" in DC, go to the VA hospitals, or a VFW and talk to some vets. Go to Arlington. Listen to the silence. Compare the death tolls of WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam to the population of your hometown. I pray for peace but I also know that because we have not learned our lessons with war, we are doomed to repeat them. I hate this war in Iraq, I feel we have disregarded the danger, that the coalition troops have no back up, no support. I'm sick of seeing those fucking magnets and stickers on cars. This isn't a football game. People are dying. If the billions spent on sending people into space was spent on adequately arming, protecting and paying our soldiers and sailors and Marines, etc. AND finding alternative sources of fuel, perhaps I would feel like the president and the rest of the clown parade gave a freaking crap about human life, America, freedom and equality. It would be hard for me to say that a jihad is any less horrific than genocide. Maybe the only difference will be the death toll. Or the faces of the dead.

13:21  
Blogger Dorman said...

APoV, :) I was suggesting that the effort of trying to find a copy of Hitler's book in France is futile because it, and his ideas, are banned there.

What part of the world are you from? As you may have noticed, I have lived in Europe for 18 months beforecoming here to Iraq.

14:09  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman ... Literally, and figuratively, I am from all over. I could tell you where I am now, but I think that would lead to another long stand on the soap box. I can mention that I have relatives in Germany, and that I can get by. Though, I find reading German much harder than French, or the other Romance languages, despite the fact that English itself is a Germanic Language. On a good day I speak English, my first words were Dutch. But, aside from perhaps being conceived somehwere in between Holland and Germany, I was not born in Europe. I am familiar with the States, I have been to New York State, Washington State, Utah, California, Florida, and probably driven through parts of the Eastern Norhthen States. I know a few sentences, in Serbian / Croatian / Yoguslovain depending who's asking. I have also been to Japan, my sister worked there for a year teaching English. I have grown up amongst, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Italians, Greeks, Portugese, Blacks, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Hispanics, Maltese, Ethopians, Eritreans, Iranians, Indians, and Pakistanis, Americans, and Europeans, alike. I have relatives, all of the world, including the States. Banning, books is double edge sword. It may prevent the bad guys from drawing from it. It will also prevent good guys from understanding how to prevent another like him. - I will let you know how the search goes. You pose an interesting dilema, for those outside of arms, "how do we do our part"? Since, you have suggested a parallels between Nazism and Islam. I will call you on that and learn as much as I can on both, in the time that have. I will let you know what I find. - In the mean time I'll still be around. - apv -

15:01  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman - In the age of the Internet it becomes increasing to ban ideas. I suppose it makes it all the more important that the our own thoughts are so much better well kept. mein kamp Please feel free, to take out the URL if you do not want it here. I would respect your decision. I just wanted to illustrate, how difficult it is to ban works, both good and evil. It will be up to people to choose there path. People, will have to simply choose well. - apv -

15:12  
Blogger mattandriver said...

History is to be learned from, not lived in.

23:23  
Blogger Dorman said...

APoV - very true, but even eBay must obey the banning laws in Europe in reference to nazi memorabilia. It is a tough situation but inaction is door through which we are vulnerable.

06:39  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman ... it's not from e-bay ... the book can be read on-line ... anyone in the world has access to the book ... naturally, you can also download the book, page by page ...

19:27  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Mattandriver Good point! How do you propose to learn from history, if there are no books?

21:49  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman If your interested, I thought I might ask you about something, on a more commond ground. You had mentioned that you found principals of Buddhism, congruent to your own beliefs. I have copied and pasted, a description of Buddhism, that I would I describe as consistent with what I understand, Buddhism to entail. Is this description, in keeping with what you had referred to earlier?

The basic doctrines of early Buddhism, which remain common to all Buddhism, include the “four noble truths”: existence is suffering (dukhka); suffering has a cause, namely craving and attachment (trishna); there is a cessation of suffering, which is nirvana; and there is a path to the cessation of suffering, the “eightfold path” of right views, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. Buddhism characteristically describes reality in terms of process and relation rather than entity or substance.

22:05  
Blogger Dorman said...

That would be generally them. But the precepts ofpeace do not preclude someone from eliminating a greater evil or threat. Martial Arts were developed by monks of Buddhism and Taoism, and other eastern religions, as methods of self-defense. Buddhists fight.

I understand that Mein Kampf is online, but that does not negate the fact of the european bans on Nazism and everything related to it.

07:14  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman You made an interesting point, but I would have phrased it that, Buddhism allows for armies. To your credit, it does not, apparently, consider this to be an unjust profession. Though, it does place constraints, in that monks, for instance can not be soldiers. It also describes the existence of armies necessary, but not in any way ideal. Rather, it suggests that one's personal progression is ultimately better served, by moving on from this profession. Perhaps, we can agre that the emphasis in Buddhism, is one of peace, over righteousness? - While still allowing for the necessity of armies.

As for, mein kampf, in a practical sense, of course, the existence of on-line copies of this book negates this ban.

I understand, the need not to promote hate. I think, by now it is clear that we both agree on that. So, of course, we simply disagree on how best to pursue such away of thinking.

Simply, I think, the average resents, being told what he can and can not read. So, this naturally, encourages people to seek out what they are told not to read. - So, while the motivation to ban books, so as people don't read them, an impoteus for the opposit is achieved, along, with the initial sentiments of resentmnet and distrust of the authorities that impose such laws. Essentially, it provides a basis for those who peddle hate to argue against the prevailing views.

I maintain that average person, living in a free and democratic county, can read and discern right from wrong. He or she will see a lie for a lie, and people will respond to a lie in kind. - In adverse conditions, were freedoms are not present, in an environment of distrust, and paranoia, over what to think and what not to think, I think the average person is at disadvantage.

It is still my optimism that Europe and North America, or still free and democratic countries, in which the average person, still can discern right from wrong, will see a lie for a lie, and respond and live accordingly.

If it is the will of a country to ban a book so be it. It doesn't mean it is the best path for, practical, or ideological reasons.

How are we to defeat our enemies, if we do not understand them?

If need be, publish these books with opposing views. But, to censor blindly, simply blinds.

Touching once again with Budhism, it is the way we do things, that is as important as what we do.

21:19  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman - Here are some quotes from some other people who wanted to ban religons.

"The religions are all alike, no matter what they call themselves. They have no future - certainly none for the Germans. Fascism, if it likes, may come to terms with the church. So shall I. Why not? That will not prevent me from tearing up Christianity root and branch, and annihilating it in Germany….For our people it is decisive whether they acknowledge the Jewish Christ creed with its effeminate pity ethics, or a strong, heroic belief in God in Nature, God in our own people, in our destiny, in our blood." -Adolph Hitler (Christian Counter-Attack: Europe's Churches Against Nazism, New York, 1944, pgs. 16, 17.)

"On May 1, 1937, there must not remain on the territory of the U.S.S.R. a single house of prayer to God, and the very conception of 'God' will be banished from the Soviet Union" -Stalin's decree of 1932 (Religion and Communism, London, pg. 279)

12:18  
Blogger Dorman said...

APoV - I am not sure what your point is with these two quotes except that you are trying to say that banning a religion is a bad idea by association with those two fellows that have tried.

I say ban all the ideas that take root to destroy the order and goodness of this world. NAMBLA can be considered a religion to some, I would like to see it banned. Several suicide UFO cults made the news in America within the last 10 years, most americans wouldn't disagree that cults of that sort should be eliminated for the good of society. What is the difference between a cult and a religion? size, thats all. Christianity was a cult and just grew too big to be argued with. How about the Voodoo zombie religions of the carribean and parts of southern america? Same status and protection as Christianity and Islam? Kill a few chickens and people freak out.

Religion had nothing to do with the fall of Nazism nor the fall of Communism, right Crys? They could have tried banning burritos and the same outcomes would have befallen them.

05:00  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Dorman I suppose, it just occurred to me that the banning of religions has been tried, and that both instances these two extremist doctrines failed. They failed at banning these religions and they failed at propogating their own views.

In light of the view being offered to ban a religion, tt seems relevant, to ask, why did they fail on both counts? What was flawed about their thinking and execution? I think if the idea of banning Islam is to be considered, a rational in relation to these previous of attempts would be useful. How is it that banning this Religion would succede where in the past others have failed.

You, had mentioned Crys, has some thoughts on the demise of Communisism. Crys, I would be interested on your views of Communism, and in particular towards religion

With regard to Cults as opposed to Religions, it is more than size. Even, size is more than size, becuase size speaks to the number of people and the number of people speaks to the notion of number of people relative to another number of people. The notion of one number of people in relation to another number of people, speaks to the notion of democracy. "Size matters!", is perhaps an appropriate rallying call, here. Further, beyound size, and democracy, it is the notion of acceptance. The word cult, immediately, calls to mind negative associations. The word religion, does not necessarily do this. A word is just a word, until you ask someone how it makes them think. The cult of Islam, is not a generally used phrase, whereas the use of the phrase the religon of Islam is. While, your parallelism, is useful, it is not generally accepted as valid amongs the majority. Of course you have your minority rights to propogate such a view. But, it should be clear to point that it is not the accepted beliefs of the majority. Just as Christianity, Budhism, Hinduism, so is Islam generally accepted as a religion. I believe these beliefes are generally accepted as religions, becuase, they all go beyound particular tennants, as they do a way of life, a general way of thinking and communities. Granted, certain religions, have done more than their share of evil, and my preference, in part, is for these reasons, is Buddhism. It seems counter to my own beliefs to destroy the beliefs of others. That is not to say, alternative beliefs can't be offerred. As I interpret the ideas of Budhism, it is to convert people with compassion not aggression. Beyond, size, democracy, or buddhism, is the idea, that one will not be persecuted for their beliefs, their actions of course, but not their beliefs. Be assured to forbid a persons beliefs is to persecute them. Ban Islam, and you take away this freedom, from someone else - how long before this freedom is take away from you, and not by Islam, because it will be gone, but rather by someone else in your own country that disagrees with your beliefs. It is perhaps with some irony, that to have beliefs, you must allow others to have beliefs, even if they differ from yours. Even if they wish to kill you, perhaps it is best to simply wish them peace. In Saudi Arabia, a cousin of mine through marriage was shot in killed by terrorists, who stormed his company's offices. He was air lifted to Texas, he died of the bullet wounds to his head. He was a Christian, he was from Canada, of English and Scottish descent. I have no hate for these people, from the middle east. They, undoubtedly have enough hate for all of us. I do not consider these people to be a part of main stream Islam. I refuse, to let them draw me into a war of their making, of their desire to have. I refuse to turn against the Islam, they claim to come from. I recognize them for what they are. Not, because I have any love for them, but simply it is because I refuse to react as they want me to. It will only serve their purpose, of polarizing the world. It will only serve to fuel hatred and intolerance.

I disagree on banning. I do agree on that cults/religons that harm people, in the form of mass sucide or child abuse should be held accountable. I do believe that religions should be encouraged to changed. With laws, if necessary, but the methods should be measured, and proportioned to achieve the end effect. The methods, should not be themselves extremist. The methods should not be motivated out of an ideology contrary to founding principals of country, without due consideration, of the consequences.

In this regard, when I think of the United States of America, the first thought that come to mind are, "home of the brave, land of the free".

I then reflect upon it's declaration of Independence, that among other things grants, certain unalienable rights, which includes amont them freedom of religion.

Inlight of these tennants that the United States is founded upon, the task then of banning Islam is counter to these very precepts that the United States of America, was born from.

Dorman, you have provided a view to Ban Islam. I am interested in example, of one measure you would take against it. Would you start with banning the Koran? How would you start, and how would you end?

11:53  
Blogger Crystal said...

i never said that religion had nothing to do with the fall of communism. actually, after the pope died, i thought it was pretty interesting how the news slated the pope as single handedly inspiring change in poland. i think that is giving him too much credit, really. but religion affects us all, even if we do not admit it.

i did say that communism did not fall because of the US or the arms race. Maybe the IDEA of the arms race, yes. But no guns brought down the Soviet Union. Gorbachev, his innovations, and the lifting of constraints from a long-oppressed group of people brought around this momentous change. the arms race might have created this pressure for change by gorby, but if he had followed suit with other party secretaries since brezhnev, the country would likely have survived a another good quarter of a century, perhaps. at least speaking economically.

i think APOV makes a great point in pursuing the fact that people should be judged by their actions, not their beliefs...that is if we are arrogant enough to judge at all.

peace

18:36  
Blogger Crystal said...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201941.html?referrer=email&referrer=email

10:42  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Thanks for the article, Crys. I will distribute it here on my side of the fence.

21:44  
Blogger Crystal said...

here is another one of interest, i think.


http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/08/04/wahhabism.shtml

22:09  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Hi Crys, the link got clipped, could you post again?

22:36  
Blogger Crystal said...

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2005/08/04/wahhabism.shtml

sorry, try this one

08:44  
Blogger Crystal said...

ok, it still did that

its just m.shtml...after wahhabis

08:45  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

wahhabism

10:34  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

one more try wahhabism

10:36  
Blogger Crystal said...

oh, wow. i dont know how you did that, but that's hot

12:33  
Blogger anotherPointOfView said...

Crys, here's a great blog. It's by a tweenty something year old in Iraq. riverblog

The links are created using "anchors". To create a link you type :

< /a href="www.thewebsight.com"> the link nam < /a>

The spaces before the /a need to be taken out. I put in a space so that the web page doesn't interpret the text as an actual anchor.

13:07  

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