Tuesday, July 12, 2005

Nothing Much

Recently I returned from a mission to Balad, you know, where Rumsfeld hangs out with the insurgent leaders. Seemed to be the same-old convoy mission except for a few things. First, we were just a bit late to experience a VBIED (car bomb) near a bridge outside Ba'qubah. We passed a line of waiting cars on our left and a pile of smoldering metal debris to our right. It is a tight alley flanked by high bushes with frequent traffic jams. The detonation must have been less than an hour before we arrived. I don't know if there were casualties or not, besides the driver. It looked as though the car detonated away from a congested area for some odd reason. Bad time to not have batteries in my cameras.

Next, once we arrived on base, we pulled our trucks to the side to in-process. I stood no more than 20 meters away from the front gate and guard shack watching an Iraqi soldier dance around and play with his weapon (AK-47). Once he brought it up, aimed at a car on the other sideof the fence, and pulled the trigger. He dry-fired, no ammo. I stood there in disbelief. Our ROE (Rules of Engagement) state that any hostile action by anyone will be met with deadly force. I said something to my gunner, who didn't see it. I stood there watching this fool hop around like he was on some rap video, throwing his weapon down and acting stupid. Again, he walked over, picked up the AK and aimed at the car and driver. Pulled the trigger 4 more times and made the rifle jerk like it was firing. That was enough. I grabbed my M249 and hastily approached this young soldier with my finger pointing at his face. He turned, faced me and went limp.
"Yes, sir...", he was able to mutter.
"Point that ****** weapon toward the ground at all times! Do NOT *&$#%$ raise it at anyone. You point it, I see you, I shoot you %$$#$ dead. Understand, ^&%$^)( dead." I sternly communicated to him as I demonstrated how to properly handle a weapon (I was up in his face).
"No bullets, sir, no bullets."
"I don't freakin' care. I don't know that when I see you. You raise weapon at an innocent person or another soldier and you are DEAD."
"yes sir, thank you sir." He mumbled as I walked away.

That is what we call a "brief block of instruction" in the Army. I may have just saved that kid's life, or at least made him look like an ass to his comrades.

During the mission we had to wear full battle rattle 24/7 with no air conditioning. The transient housing tents were full of sand fleas, so I now look like I have suffered a biblical plaque.

After the mission, I was given a convoy team coin. I am now part of the 'inner circle' so to speak.

79 Comments:

Blogger Carnealian said...

And, I'd like to know why I wasn't permitted to speak to my employees that way?!? It's direct, emphatic and to the point. Why dance around the subject?

Congrats D!

11:02  
Blogger InterstellarLass said...

Did you tell Rumsfeld 'Hi' for me?

Thank you for kicking that idiot's proverbial ass. The sooner they get their shit together, the sooner you guys can all come home.

Poor you. I hope to avoid poison ivy this weekend. Don't want to go through that again.

12:38  
Blogger Crystal said...

seems like a whole lot

14:04  
Blogger mattandriver said...

You are seeing things that our 'we' should not see. I am sorry for you. Looking back, I feel sorry for your position.

My term in the service was faceless. I have never had the bourdon of 'seeing the enemy' up close. Launch and watch was our goal. But I am sure you will somehow learn from this experience. You always seem to do so, reflectively.

21:20  
Blogger Dorman said...

Who thought I exaggerated when I called them baby killers?

23:29  
Blogger Crystal said...

what they did is absolutely disgusting. but americans are not guiltless. and this is not american guilt speaking. its plainly the fact of the matter. let's use the over-used comparison of vietnam here. oh, let's not forget our most recent atrocity, abu ghraib, and yeah, i know, im gonna get mud thrown in my face for this one, but let's do it. guantanamo bay. that's right. i said it.

especially if our presence precipitates this action.

i just want a new solution, because this one isn't doing a thing towards ending bloodshed on either side. blaming an entire religion, hating an entire religion, fighting religious extremists, who create more extremists just by waving $$$$ in their face, cannot be stopped by "outrage" alone. more talks need to happen. more compromise needs to take place.

00:17  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

Dorman, never doubted you for a moment.
No amount of talking or compromise will solve anything. These people are killers and that is all they are interested in. If they were interested in talking, they would contact someone first rather than send bombs first.

08:46  
Blogger Dorman said...

Crys, I am frankly shocked. That attitude is what defeats us before we even start. I have no response to even validate that point of view. I am just sorry you feel that way. Peace at any cost is cowardice.

Weren't you the one a long time ago that rendered the argument to me that 'they love their kids too'?

I have also come to realize that Islam is just another corrupt branch on the Abrahamic religion tree. How can a whole string of religios movements based on theocratic genocide ever change? At this point, I say avoid the whole bunch of them once you know the truth of history. Right Ric? i just crapped on your front lawn so-to-speak. I figure now you will edify in a response,please.

11:32  
Blogger Crystal said...

Dorman,

I am not saying that they aren't disgusting, horrible, scary people whose atrocities do not even try to prevent the deaths of innocent children. And no, I am sure you can refresh my memory, dig back and find where I said that, but I dont remember writing it. I do believe that MUSLIMS do love their children. These insurgents are murderers, we are all too aware. Some radical steps need to be taken to prevent people from using a Holy Book to support their bloody/violent/unpeaceful causes.

But I am sick of having information displayed like this, in a see-i-told-you-so manner. So forgive me, if I seem a little anti. I am always for peace. Peace should always be what we are striving for. Its not a cop-out. And even in this case, I believe there is a better solution. But I know they will not put down their weapons first, because we are unwilling to find any better solution except to keep reiterating our position without a timeline.

And, how is the rest of the world handling the situation? France held their Bastille Day celebrations as if they were under attack. Media in New England refuse to call the terrorists, terrorists, they are being referred to as the London Bombers. Why, because the terminology is becoming obsolete, over-used, mismanaged in the worst possible way. To where people become labeled out of fear, rather under definition, as the case may be.

Today I read somewhere that around 800 Iraqis die each month since the election. 800 people, men, women, children. Many I am sure who are innocent. Who were not influenced by the dollar to do harm to Americans, and American soldiers. Its all sickening. Are people dying for nothing?

My attitude is not self-defeating. The only kind of tone I am trying to convey is one of sadness. This conflict is never going to end. Because we won't let it, and neither will they. I hope it ends, and ends soon. But even if we leave Iraq, we will move on to the next hot spot of "terrorism" because we are now suffering from the dominoe-effect.

sorry for shocking you or anyone else.

sidenote: for those of you who would like to scream at me for being unamerican, whatever that means. i AM proud to be an american citizen, and i am behind our armed forces. peace out

13:31  
Blogger Ric said...

I'm your Huckleberry. (movie reference) I'm not completely sure how you came to theocratic genocide as the basis of the abrahamic relgions. What about the good that was done by these religions? There are flaws to be found in almost everything. Name something that doesn't drift from it's purpose and become contaminated. Don't all the bracnches have a plan for redemption or approval; to be placed in good standing with the higher power?

17:20  
Blogger mattandriver said...

Okey Then...

19:40  
Blogger Crystal said...

actually the val kilmer says "i'll be your Huckleberry"

19:59  
Blogger InterstellarLass said...

Whatever he said, Val Kilmer is HOT. Oh yeah...

22:25  
Blogger Dorman said...

Ric, you know better than all of us the Old Testament is replete with commands from God ordering the elimination of whole races, cities, countries, peoples....genocide. All the derivative religions have followed suit no matter how the facts have been interpreted.

Crys, I serached, maybe Saije said it but it was said in one of the debates we had.

We need to ask ourselves what good comes out of this rotten part of the world. Aret he Iraqis doing anything good, productive and noteowrthy? No. Do they help themselves? no. The gov't still is spinning its wheels, the only citizens that are doing anything close to making a positive difference are the volunteer soldiers. There is nothing, that I see (and I look daily), that is reportable on the 'good news' side of things.

We touched on reconstruction and a standard for the rural parts of Iraq. I got to thinking that morality, ethics, and world-view all develop and match developmental environments. Therefore, these folks that grew up in mud huts in the middle of the desert watching sheep their entire developmental years, will have a very very limited ethos and perspective. That doesn't match with a modern urban western POV. They are like 3rd graders dealing with 11th graders. America is like a headstrong teenager babysitting a 7 year old. That is why we are best served to step back and let them work it all out at their own level.

03:06  
Blogger Crystal said...

morning

I dont think I write well in the morning, but I will try to be as eloquent as possible.

I guess it is hard to see the good in where you are at. But I am sure there is lots of it. And you find it in the people you interview, the children you see, the villagers you meet. Not to mention, the history. Some say, this is where history began, and the many artifacts people have found are amazing.

I have confidence that the new government will come together eventually, given enough time and tools to do so. "Spinning wheels" so-to-speak is not surprising given the circumstances and the task they are facing, while under a constant state of chance of attack.

I would think that people living in mud huts and off the land are prolly more peaceful than our own modern society. So I have no idea how high-speed internet will help those folks, or if we are helping at all in the reconstruction phase. I hope we are, and I think we do have to take a step back, politically, and let the Iraqi Government do what it sees fit. But we are not obliterating an entire culture, nor should we want to, so we must strive to understand them, including their Islamic roots, and not call them all names, but identify the problem(s) as they pertain to the threat.

P.S. IL-the movie is tombstone. you should watch it mos def, if you haven't done so. even a tubercular val kilmer is absolutely insanely gorgeous.

07:37  
Blogger Ric said...

Dorman,

you said basis of the relgions. yes everything you said is true but that is not the basis of them. It would be impossible to deny those things happened and were ordered. However, you have not mentioned the promises given or any of the deliverance. if you want to go back historical relating to the abrahamic religions, then you must go back to the very beginning. Everything was created good, genocide was not the basis. I do not deny the bloodshed or the distortion all the religions that have evolved in the abrahamic line. But the basis was not and is not genocide. What about the good that has come about as a result of those religions. The food for third world contries, the medical supplies and services. Try to see the good in it while not denying the bad.

10:49  
Blogger Dorman said...

What about the good that came from the 13+ million dead from nazis? Does a little bit of good justify and excuse genocide? And does genocide become acceptible if I say my god commanded it? Judaism was not original, BTW. Zoroastrianism pre-dated it in that area and many many ideas were based on that. Epic of Gilgamesh pre-dated the Torah and therefore was the basis of the story of Noah. Genocidal roots are genocidal roots, the judgment is on whether genocide is acceptable or not. and the 'ends justify the means' argument doesn't hold intellectually.

I don't think we get involved with these people at all socially. Let them be/do what they want, who are we to condescent to them like some omnipotent beings.

Contrast the quick progress in Afghanistan....hmmm.

13:57  
Blogger Crystal said...

i think you are intentionally taking what ric said the wrong way. i dont believe he is saying that nazism is ok, that the insurgents are ok, that religious extremists who believe they are instructed by god to wreak havoc are acceptable. there are parts of the quran that do possibly encourage this perversion of a mostly peaceful religion, and hurt the reputation of an entire culture. but what he is trying to point out is that the few who turn a good thing bad cannot overcast all the good others do. those who try to circumvent society should not ruin a good thing for the rest. then again, look at what we have done to ourselves with the patriot act, maybe the criminals do negatively change society reflecting their power in our own laws. i hope you get my point.

im glad you mentioned gilgamesh. i helped my sis polish up an essay on the topic just this past weekend, and was thinking about it as it pertains to this discussion. im not a bible hugger, not one bit. and throughout history, it has done its own share of influencing others to do bad things, i.e. the reformation, the crusades, the spanish inquisition, etc. here is what i think on the evolution of history, to partial history, to "biblical" history, to stories, to reality. at their conception these books that have inspired whole religions, wars, sects, philosophies, faith, and disbelief, have a purpose in teaching, guiding us through this earthly life. But they cannot be the final rule to follow. Only our good judgement, separate from these literary influences can make the right, moral decision, because not all of the solutions available are dictated within these archaic, but important documents. therefore, the real and ultimate blame for violence committed on behalf of a religious idea must always fall on the person who partakes in it.

PEACE

15:51  
Blogger Crystal said...

and dorman, weren't you the one that wanted some kind of transfer or something or other, to be closer to the people, to be able to interact more with them. what happened to that guy?

interaction is part of social progress and is necessary for us to identify what is and what is not a proper role for our part, if any of this is proper at all.

17:21  
Blogger Dorman said...

You make sweeping assumptions, Crys. You still haven't been able to separate the difference between Islam and muslims and the factI want to destroy one and understand the other.

Ric, i believe,meant exactly what he said. Which is what I have been waiting for for years now. Drofub, listen up too. How many times do you all and the non-muslim American society parrot the speak back that "islam is a peacefulreligion"? Now I have proven where it comes from. You all have an unexamined and twisted view of your own religions and what 'peaceful' is. Let mne sum it up quickly. All Abrahamic religions are based on genocide justified by some divine mandate. Read the OT people. Genocide glossed over by some happy (for the hebrew) ending. Christianity did its share to its own members in Rome all the way up through the crusades and beyond. Islam is an apple thathadn't fallen far from the tree. No pun intended. I don't find their mandate to convert or kill the rest of the world any less tragic than any of the other Abrahamic genocidal mandates found all over scripture. All in perspective and that perspective shifts conveniently in many of you. Peace at all costs! Bah. Might as well be 'Do what you want just please leave me alone!' I don't think we can love or understand them out of their mandate. I think the answer is to get them to transcend the perspective of their religion. As it stands, many middle easterners do not separate secular from religious like we americans do. You want the killing to stop? Realize the entire length of the root then.

17:51  
Blogger Dorman said...

I have no answers anymore except that tolerance is not the answer. neither is genocide. I can only imagine that the elimination of the religion will work. We've transcended real Christianity in America. 167 out of 168 hours per week are spent being secular at best for most folks. It is not as strong a motivator for us as islam is for them.

17:55  
Blogger Ric said...

Dorman,

What were you waiting (for years) for me to say? I am lost. Why didn't you just ask?

19:37  
Blogger Ric said...

Dorman,

What were you waiting for years to hear me say? I am lost. Why didn't you just ask?

19:39  
Blogger Ric said...

sorry,
Still learning how to work this blog thing.

19:40  
Blogger Crystal said...

Ever read John Locke's "A Letter Concerning Toleration". Short Read. Based on Christian tolerance. But still the same kind of principles. influenced our founding fathers...

"So that the Controversie between these Churches about the Truth of their Doctrines, and the Purity of their Worship, is on both sides equal; nor is there any Judge, either at Constantinople, or elsewhere upon Earth, by whose Sentense it can be determined. The Decision of that Question belongs only to the Supream Judge of all men, to whom also alone belongs the Punishment of the Erroneous."

What are my assumptions? I am disenchanted with religions in general, yet still outwardly practice it. I know it makes no sense, except its a comfort in my own life. There is no way to get around it. If you condemn one religion, you must condemn them all whether for past transgressions, present, or future.

For me, there isn't a difference between Islam and Muslim. Catholic and Catholicism, Methodist and a Methodist. Christianity and the Christian. Hinduism and Hindus, Buddhism and a Buddhist. They are all the same. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? The person is the idea, the religion.

And even if your answer were right, which it isn't, its not practical. It cannot possibly be enforced. So we must find a better solution.

as far as the integration of muslims into western culture and mindset, as is now becoming a growing problem in europe we need to find a workable solution, and fast.

20:18  
Blogger Dorman said...

Ric, you just showed a cognitive dissonance to excuse Christianity and Judaism from the same horrors we are dealing with today. According to scripture though, the hebrews did a more thorough job than today's muslim terrorist. You have shown that Christianity has long since left its roots and been made a manifold derivitive of what it was....turned into a self-created idea. We make it what we want it to be and then label it for validation. It is ok whatever the christians and jews historically did because somehow along the line you see they've done some good. Ask the indigenous peoples of america and south america how good it was for them. Or the pagans and druids of europe. how about the half-assed 'civilizing' of africa that left a fine continent still struggling between the cultures it knew and the pseudo western lifestyle imposed upon them. What good has christianity done for the world? Judaism? I know of at least one reader that has a distinct view of the jewish role in the world vs the muslim and christian ideas. As far as I can recollect, it has been only the abrahamic religions that set out to conquer the earth at the edge of a sword for God. So, no it isn't all religions and no muslims and islam are not the same. Christians and christianity are not the same, nor jews and judaism. One is a thought, one is a person. A person can definitely exist without the thought but not vice versa.

I have heard a lot of nay-saying about my suggestions for solutions but I have yet to hear a viable suggestion from anyone else - nuking the place doesn't count. I am here because I put my money where my mouth is in life. Part of some sort of solution, I thought. Walking around america being angst ridden and negating ideas for action just won't solve anything. Clenching your eyes shut and wishing upon that star for peace on earth isn't a plan either. That muslim you know back home that is so peaceful and representative in your mind of Islam as a wholeis not anything like the muslims around the world. the Jew you know in NYC is not like the Jew fighting in Gaza right now. that christian you know or think you are is nothing like the christian in teh slovak countries or in Iraq. Wake up, the environments are different but the ideology is similar. Their upbringing different and their societies different.

My suggestion for a first step in a solution is this....quit wishing, quit being 'tolerant', quit blaming yourselves on worldwide TV, quit holding back 'for others sake', and move forward as Americans! Find some basis that you all agree on and act on it. Act on it as Americans, not saviors of the world, not as some holier-than-though nation that thinks it has a higher calling than it really does....because we don't. We are a country like many others. Not the biggest,not the strongest, just the loudest at this point.

Our administration does what it does because it can get away with it amidst the bickering and in-fighting amongst the factionalized american 'culture'. Multiculturalism has been a plague on american society for a long time and this is a negative symptom.

02:28  
Blogger Crystal said...

argh. ill comment after i take a deep breath. argh

10:17  
Blogger Crystal said...

Jew = Judaism, Christian = Christianity in the sense that one perpetuates the other, that if they are truly hard core religious, the person will see themselves only through the cloak of their religion. The thought was created by one (or the One, whatever), it cannot be extinguished, untolerated, or excommunicated from the world, unless this is 1984.

I don’t have a viable solution to offer, but neither do you. My only hope is that we can continue to reach out and help where we can. Yep, that is broad, it is intended to be. Your solution will only foster more ill will in the world. It is too narrow.

Are my eyes shut? Are they really? I hope you didn’t become a soldier because of some bet, to someone else or even as a personal wager to yourself. That is scary. Peace is possible. Don’t discredit this ideal situation. It is well founded in all human beings, even the ones you hate. And I will continue saying that as long as I have a breath.

My friend is not a representative of Islam as a whole for me, in this sense. I forgot I had mentioned him. And I don’t know what I said. But what I do cherish the friendship I have with him. What he is a representative of is America-our ‘tolerance’ of multi-culturalism that has enabled us, me and him, to come in contact in a peaceful manner. He is an example, as are all the Muslims who interact around the world in a tolerant and peaceful manner. As Americans, we have emancipated ourselves from the quagmire of culture and religion in this sense of toleration. We are still imperfect, but I believe this is a GOOD thing, and we are progressing. The representatives of cultures and religions in America are absolutely different from the rest of the world. Yet we are able to peacefully coexist where others continue to fail. As for denoting Christianity as a ‘self-created idea’, I think it would be helpful to think of Islam evolving in that same context, cuz I agree. A religion can re-create itself and should adapt to people and the changing world.

Before, when the topic of toleration was discussed in depth, I told you that I agreed mostly with what you said, and I still do. The intolerance you see within this religion is something that is very serious and dangerous. But, since we are dealing with a society that is much different than our own, one that lives semi-nomadic lives, in mud huts and what not, how can we expect or force them to analyze and change their entire religion when it took us centuries to get where we are today. As Saije has been discussing on her blog, the fall of Saddam in the least has sparked and given the Iraqis some amount of free expression. Something we have taken for granted for years. Given enough time and contact with the rest of the world, I think this religion will become more tolerant of women, other religions, cultures, and peoples, etc. Just as we have been forced or acclimated to do so as well. And we will all together be able to emancipate ourselves from intolerance, because everything will become tolerable. Then again, maybe my eyes are still shut tight. I am sure you will tell me if you at least, believe they are. ^_^

мир в мире

17:00  
Blogger Ric said...

I don't recall saying it was ok what the Jews and Christians have done, I just acknowledged it. Acknowlegement is notjustification. Both religions have checkered past, but checkered means good and bad. Can you list any good they have done? Yes to a large degree Christianity has become a self directed process. We now define God as we want him to be.

isn't the problem a fight over land. both claim to have sole posession. Jerusalem is divided. The solution, one nation or nations must conquer the other and then peace will follow, at least until the conquered nation rises up and begins the conflict again. I do not believe you can appease jealousy. In some sense it is like a family fued.

22:20  
Blogger Dorman said...

I was aiming more at the dismissal of such genocidal acts rather than a justification thereof. And I am not attacking christianity nor judaism per se. I am making a broader view of the state of islam today and how we tend to think incongruously about it vs our own familiar religion.

I do have a solution. It is just one that you don't like, Crys. Eliminate the religion like Europe has eliminated the philosophy of Nazism. Been saying that all along. After the crusades,Christianity essentially got neutered socially and because more of a folk belief system than a governmental platform. Hence the 'social neutering' I spoke of long ago. Western civilization transcended the religion in their governments and society and thus reduced the religion's role and power therein. Britain was the closest thing to an exception with its C of E and monarchy. But that even changed. Same thing needs to start here.

00:07  
Blogger Crystal said...

I don't like it. No doubt about that. Besides being utterly wrong, your solution is not viable. Think implementation. Impossible.

01:38  
Blogger Dorman said...

Implementation is easy. Disallow immigration from the middle east, disallow special priveleges. Europeans outlawed nazism. Doesn't need to go that far but it is a last resort.

You make a suggestion. anybody.

07:49  
Blogger drofub said...

yeah, lets build a huge wall around the middle east and keep them caged up...then we'll round up all the other muslims in the world (can't be too many right?) and put them in there too...

hmmmm, they might not be too agreeable about selling us oil anymore if we did that...gotta think of something better...

21:59  
Blogger Ric said...

Dorman's idea, although could be sucessful, is not feasable. Not because of logistics but because tolerance has dug such deep roots into the minds of people. It would never sell. We are afraid to have enemies now. It seems when we have an enemy it means we did something wrong. We have some sort of odd guilt complex. The more simple we can make it the better. It is not a problem of what people in the middle east have done but rather how we think about ourselves.

22:36  
Blogger Dorman said...

Why is islam thought of any different than the idea of communism or nazism? Mormonism ended up in Utah for a specific reason (but then america expanded around it anyway). Funny how sense and rules that applied before don't seem to apply to islam today. why not? Immigration control is part of the answer, ask Sweden. Ric has a great point about tolerance being too far gone.

23:07  
Blogger Crystal said...

I believe many people become enemies through the fault of NEITHER party. Sometimes things are just out of our control. So, instead of concentrating on who is wrong, and who is right. Sometimes the faster way to heal, is to just move on, from that point forward. Start anew. Come together on some common ground, that can be agreed upon.

Tolerance is a GOOD thing! Why have so many become disenchanted with this idea that has allowed whole cultures to peacefully coexist!?!?! :(

I dont care about the guilt, as you two call it, on us or them. I personally have none. I have never done anything to incur this guilt. But since we are so powerful, we should do what we can to help those who do not have as much. Its a rather simple motto, that I try to personally live by. But it can work here as well. And, in a way, is working already.

23:11  
Blogger Crystal said...

wow, first and foremost, communism, i don't think was evil, at first. it was a very peaceful idea, i think. i guess what it became can be classified in the same category as nazism, but the initial idea, i dont think i would agree.

and i would never classify islam and nazism in the same category. ever

23:16  
Blogger Dorman said...

nazism's philosophy is exactly the same as islam's except islam has an unseen leader in allah instead of a fuhrer. superior race = arab, subjugate world, kill millions in cause's name, scapegoat a demographic to justify (the infidel non-muslim).

snotsucker, how about a brief lesson on the nazi belief system/philosophy.

for another point of view, check out LindaSoG.com . She may have some interesting ideas on how to control the problem.

01:14  
Blogger drofub said...

if tolerance is the main issue then how do you convince people to no longer rationalize the problem as being an issue with the extremists of the religion as opposed to the religion as a whole?

i don't think anyone here would conclude that islam doesn't have problems...excellent points have been made but i think its too early to conclude that the whole religion needs to be wiped out as opposed to convincing the moderates to take back control of their religion...

the beginnings of islam came about during a time of persecution and that is why there are violent passages calling for the elimination of "inferior" races...the moderates know enough to dismiss those aspects of their book's teachings just as most christians and jews have dismissed similar passages in the bible...what if christianity was wiped out in response to the crusades? that was a more concerted effort than what the terrorists have put together and much deadlier...christianity evolved to what it is today and yet still has issues with extremists within its own ranks...not to the same degree as islam right now so it doesn't grab as many headlines but can be equally radical and deadly...the problem with islam is the people not the religion...it has to start with the way its being taught by angry clerics who draw parallels between our occupation and the more violent teachings of the koran...either that or we find an alternative energy source so occupation is no longer necessary...makes sense to me but i'm sure the latter would be considered 'giving in' by some...

logistically there still are problems with implementation...how do you tell saudi arabia (our "buddy") that their primary religion is wrong and not expect some sort of adverse response in relation to OIL? furthermore, how do we impose immigration restrictions without a similar adverse response...they have us by the balls and they know it...they have the oil, we consume it and make them rich, and they turn around and ignore the way their religion is being used as a tool for extremists purposes...they don't want to upset the extremists because they know if they leave the extremists alone then the extremists will leave them alone...what a mess!

a final note, its too easy to draw parallels between the ideals of any group with extremists in its ranks and nazis...the actions are where the difference lie---the actions of muslims right now are not in proportion with the atrocities of the nazis nor have they mobilized and set out to take over the world...maybe they will someday but until then we can't just assume that is the direction they're heading without considering a more peaceful islam evolving from its problems of today...

14:24  
Blogger Crystal said...

go drofub, i like you. you are my new hero!!!

16:54  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

You cannot compare magnitude or proportion. But that is not what we are comparing or are interested in. Dorman is interested in similarities between their ideologies/philosophies leading to their actions. And YES they are similar. Nazi 401 coming soon.....
Gutenacht!

19:59  
Blogger Ric said...

drofub hit on a good point, our unwillingness to develop a replacement for oil. If we don't need/use their oil, we don't have to deal with them or be involved in their conflicts. Aren't there other places to get oil, other fuels to use to cut back oil consumption. We should become more self reliant as a country.

20:53  
Blogger drofub said...

snotsucker,

elaborate, please, on all the ideological and philosophical similarities between islam and nazis...I have an open mind and am interested in what you have to say...plus, I believe dorman has already asked this of you...

21:57  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

Due to lack of time, sorry, I'm taking the easy way out. And I would have only skimmed the surface of what has already been researched/written. I actually learned quite a bit after looking into it further. I'm no expert on Nazism, but have studied it on my own out of sheer interest and fascination.
Here are two links that give an in depth look into the similarities/parallels between the two:
Freerepublic
Mideastnewswire

23:25  
Blogger drofub said...

took a brief look at those articles and it does support a similarity between radical islam and nazis...i'm not disputing that or similarities between any radical group and nazis...i thought the argument was that the core islam ideals are similar to nazi ideals...

22:23  
Blogger Crystal said...

yeah

yeah,

take that snotsucker (im j/k)

go drofub

00:37  
Blogger Dorman said...

1) most of most of the USA's oil comes from Venezuela, middle east oil is 4th or 5th on the list. We have more on american soil than the middle east produces. Oil is a game of chicken to see who will be the first to run out. think about who we'd want to run out first....middle east.

2) similarities between nazism and how islam is written. any interpretation of what is written changes the basis and therefore is not islam. Hence neo-nazis instead of nazis today. Folks that read the scripture of a religion as it is written are NOT radical. It is irrational to think you would be part of a religion and not go by its laws as written.

3) count the bodies of the dead. Since islam's inception there have been more dead than the nazis.

4) islam was not borne out of persecution, it was spread BY persecution and the edge of the sword. Mohammed's first conquest was Medina, then Mecca. Not peacefully but by a military attack.

5) judaism evolved past the genocidal period of its history. christianity did also, about 100 years ago. Islam is roughly in the same developmental period as chritianity was during its crusades time. Christianity separated from being solely political to being more religious inasmuch as the government wasn't run and appointed by a church and laws were secularized. Islam needs to have the same happen.

01:03  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

"Some people wonder why Muslims become so irritated when you criticize their religion. To understand this phenomenon you have to understand Muhammad. Muhammad was a narcissist. He craved for attention. He demanded his followers to love him more than their own parents and more than their own selves. Personality cult is part of the despotic rule. Muhammad could make such demands by putting his wishes in the mouth of his imaginary Allah. Also because he was a narcissist he could not tolerate dissent and because of that he had no regards for human lives. Killing those who differed with him was as easy for him as killing bugs. Nothing mattered to him except his own self and his reveries of grandiosity.

Muslims echo that mindset. They have lost their own identity as independent human beings. They see themselves as part of Muhammad’s extended ego. They see their own existence as a function to appease this man's ghost. They have accepted to become supplies to Muhammad's narcissistic cravings.

Muhammad convinced his followers that those who serve him more, love him more, and sacrifice themselves for him are the best. He assured them that he is the only one that can intercede for them in front of Allah. Obedience to Allah actually meant obedience to him and fear of Allah was also fear of him. Allah was his own alter ego. So Muslims of his time competed with each other to meet his approval. The great historian Al Tabari, writes that Muslim tribes and individuals vied with each other to serve him and gain his approval. He would promise them heaven and they were elated with those promises. Tabari writes: if someone assassinated an opponent of the messenger of Allah he would praise the assassin for getting him rid of that opponent. This would encourage other Muslims to come to him and tell him that so and so is also badmouthing him asking his permission to kill that person. Al Tabari says such was the devotion of the believers that they felt envious of each other if one of them did a service to the Prophet and was favored by him. This sycophantic spirit, that is based on personality cult, typical in dictatorial milieus and encouraged by individuals suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, lingered among the followers of Muhammad and is accentuated by the passage of time. Muhammad is dead but the sycophantism of his early followers has survived. Muhammad is dead but his intolerance has survived. Muhammad is dead but the community that he forged continues to live by the standards that he left.

There are several stories about Omar, the second caliph, who would pull out his sword asking permission to slay the man who would question Muhammad’s claim in front of him. Why would Omar behave in such manner? Obviously he was encouraged by Muhammad's approval. In this way he would show his total devotion to him and would demonstrate that he is a loyal believer. If you say a word against Muhammad and Muslims today behave as if they want to slit your throat is because that legacy of sycophantic zealotry condoned and encouraged by Muhammad has survived. Therefore the source of all Islamic bigotry and intolerance must be traced to Muhammad himself. This is a colossal catastrophe that a billion people follow the whims of an emotionally insane narcissist. Muhammad is such a huge lie that is almost believable. But we can only understand him if we study the lives of other great narcissists such as Hitler, Stalin or Saddam Hussein. Bearing in mind that Muhammad was the greatest of all.

So what is the solution? But before that let me tell you what IS NOT the solution. Fighting Muslims is not the solution. Discriminating against them is not the solution. Hating them is not the solution. Remember that Islam thrives on hate. Islam needs an enemy to survive. If there is no enemy it invents one. Doctrines of hate cannot survive without enemy. It is the hatred of the enemy that makes them strong. The communists had the bourgeoisie to hate, the Nazis had the Jews to hate and the Muslims have the non-believers to hate. So by becoming their enemy you are fueling their fire. They grow stronger when they have enemies. Hating the Muslims will only harden them. Muslims love to consider themselves as victims in order to hate their "oppressors" and summon force to combat them and "take revenge". So what is the solution?

Understanding them is the solution. You have to understand why they behave in this way. When you understand that Islam is not a religion but the hallucination of a very evil man, you realize that Muslims are truly victims. you cannot hate victims. You have to help them. But how? The answer is by exposing the fallacies of their belief. The true nature of Muhammad must be exposed. You must undermine the foundation of their beliefs. That is the solution. We should not attack the Muslims but Islam. This is diametrically opposed to what the politically correct world is doing now. The world, just as during the Chamberlain's days, is adopting the policy of appeasement. Everyone is trying to leave Islam and its author unblemished and blame "a few of its misguided" followers. This is hypocrisy. The followers are doing what their holy book is demanding them to do. You cannot revere the bloody scriptures of the Quran and condemn those who follow them. This approach is doomed to fail because it is based on lie. It has not worked and it is not going to work. The problem is with the Quran not with those gullible souls who believe in that book. If we want to eliminate Islamic terrorism, we have to change our strategy. We have to find the source of the problem and eliminate it from the source. The source is the Quran; the problem is Muhammad; not the believers."

02:14  
Blogger Dorman said...

awesome. I understand the solution but feel that there is little hope of it being successful for 2 reasons. 1) Ric can tell you even more in depth how the world has tried to stamp out christianity, even in the face of blatantly created 'history', 2) understanding is not effective, it is a vehicle or a mode, not an action. And 'pointing out the fallacies' and rationalizing with a muslim pits you against them again. Keep in mind all you have to do is be to be their enemy. Rationalizing with a person so irrational to have suicidal faith in the joke of islam is idiotic, like talking about fine wines to a hobo. That is why christianity withstood the Roman days...if the romans wouldn't persecute them, they killed each other in the Romans' names and called it martyrdom. What could the romans do. It became a he-said, she-said situation. We all know that if you repeat a mantra enough times to enough people, it becomes true, and it isn't true then you justified 'faith'.

Nazis, communists, imperialists, all defeated by the gun.

04:26  
Blogger Dorman said...

Out of curiosity, what did CPT. Picard do to fend off the Borg?

04:34  
Blogger drofub said...

ok, where to begin?

dorman-

venezuala is not the primary source of our oil...actually its mexico, canada, saudi arabia and then venzuela...still a major contributor but my point was that oil from the middle east is important to us...I hope your not disputing that...

do a search on kharajites and you will learn one theory on where the present day terrorists are deriving their connection to islam...

comparing a count of bodies of the dead between islam and nazis is not fair considering their respective tenures...like comparing apples and oranges...btw, do you have the actual figures?

we'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not islam was borne out of persecution...your further comment is irrelevant when you consider how another major religion was spread...

Comparing present day islam to christianity during the crusades might be stretching it a bit...your point is well taken though...


snotsucker-

anyone with strong religious feelings would be "irritated" by someone putting down their religion...furthermore, if a radical group was using your religion as their reason for their actions and outsiders were criticizing your religion for it wouldn't you be extra pissed?

in relation to the rest of your entry, how do you objectively research all the info on islam and ultimately decide that one particular view is based on fact? I'm not saying your wrong but I have come across so much pro and con info out there that I can't definitively say one is right and the other is wrong...in addition, historical records were primarily done orally during that time (at least thats what I've read) so it makes me question the validity of almost anything I'm reading on the subject of muhammed and his life...

btw, was your entry one big quote?...if so, you forgot the footnote...just kidding...I can understand your time constraints...I barely have time for this myself and will need to take a break...


dorman-

communists were defeated by the gun?

its been a long time since I've seen that particular ST episode your referring to...what did he do?


crys-

thanks for the props...

23:01  
Blogger Dorman said...

Ever hear of the Cold War? Lots of guns involved in that stand off which ultimately defeated communism in Russia. Now how does one defeat the idea of communism? How does one defeat the neo-nazi movement? Lot's of nay-saying and no solutions won't bring about change.

Why the continued reluctance to equate islam with nazism, the two are almost identical except in origin and focal leader (hitler or allah). No one has figures on how many the muslims have killed because it has been so long and wide spread, we don't even have exact numbers on how many the nazis killed.

Here's a test, post your honest initial reactions.....

I personally think Nazi philosophy is correct. I think Hitler was an amazing leader and did wonders for Germany to be stopped only by the mistake of genocidal actions. I believe there are master races, of which I am one, and parasitic races that drain and destroy the society in which I live. I would be proud to publicly call myself a Nazi and wear the uniform which represents my beliefs. I will engage any and all who oppose my beliefs and my efforts to make the changes I see necessary.

end test

Now, what is your initial reaction?

00:54  
Blogger Crystal said...

first of all, there are many reasons why communism failed when it did, that had nothing to do with the arms build up, but with the decisions of the Soviet leaders. Eventually, the arms race might have defeated the SU, but implying that it was the primary cause in the 90's gives us way too much credit, and the people of the SU, their leaders, and all the movements within it (like the Prague Spring, or Polish Solidarity), not enough. Economically speaking, the Soviet Union could have pulled through probably much longer if it had not been for the social upheaval they were experiencing...especially after perestroika and glasnost.

As for my initial reaction:
what is wrong with this dude? does he really think nazism is alive today? how do people possibly come to these conclusions. i hope he doesn't engage me...

07:49  
Blogger drofub said...

I agree with crys...the end of the soviet union had nothing to do with arms in the same way that the end of nazi germany or imperialist japan did...

I still feel that the necessary change that islam must go through will ultimately be up to the moderates of the religion...why do you continue to lump all muslims together when you know that there are many different divisions of the islam religion all with varying degrees of fundamentalism? christianity is no different...

my initial reaction is: sounds like this guy is a kkk member and is willing to infringe on peoples freedoms for what he believes...

08:19  
Blogger Dorman said...

so why does communism not take ahold in most civilized societies any more but yet islam does?

Guns were major factor in the Cold War. obviously.

Here's another clip to consider...

I personally think islam philosophy is correct. I think Mohammed was an amazing leader and did wonders for Arabia to be stopped only by the mistake of genocidal actions. I believe there are master races, of which I am one, and parasitic races that drain and destroy the society in which I live. I would be proud to publicly call myself a muslim and wear the garb which represents my beliefs. I will engage any and all who oppose my beliefs and my efforts to make the changes I see necessary.


somehow the first one people spit at as hate-mongers, but then turn and give a blank check for the second. Same philosophy and mindset, just different nouns. Check the consistancy in your thinking folks. And if you are a constant, nay-sayer (drofub) then please enlighten us all as to how to handle the obvious assault we endure daily in the name if islam (the attackers' claims, not mine).

to make a religion 'moderate' or to change it from its original purpose as exposed in written unchanging scripture is to fundamentally change the nature of the beast. It then becomes something other than islam much like american christianity is nothing like the orthodox christianity here in the middle-east. Like I said to Ric, it becomes a self-created phenomenon instead of an example of the original.

If you are going to tell someone their ideas are shortsighted or wrong, follow up with a solution of your own.

08:32  
Blogger Crystal said...

guns were/are not as important as you think they were/are.
obviously

you are not part of a master race, and as soon as you realize that, maybe we can all agree on a solution

10:16  
Blogger Crystal said...

also, i think the ideas of initial communism live on in social welfare programs today.

10:21  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

Hitler, wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

As for your test, :))

10:34  
Blogger drofub said...

guns were a major factor in the cold war but not a major factor in the defeat of communism...and it was in no way by force through utilization of guns...you know what I mean, I get the feeling you're purposely being difficult on that point...

I understand the point of your test but its not a fair test...a moderate muslim would not say something like that, a radical muslim would...you gonna try to tell me that there aren't radical christian groups that feel they are right and everybody else needs to be in their circle to attain rights to heaven...maybe they don't go killing people but I'm not trying to excuse radical muslims for that...the point I'm trying to make is that you can't blame all of islam for the radicals deeds...if all muslims felt the same way as todays radicals that would be an uncontrollable problem---don't you think?...

whats the correct christian religion to follow? obviously, the different divisions can't all be right...and which one follows the bible according to the way it was written?...bible or koran, doesn't matter, both are open to interpretation and full of symbolism...

you know from our previous discussions on this subject that I'm not going to change my mind on this...and I know you are not going to change your mind...we'll have to agree to disagree...bottom line for me is that it just doesn't make any sense to blame an entire religion when its clear that a radical offshoot of it is to blame...

I've already stated what the solution is and its alot more feasible than picking up a gun...

11:36  
Blogger Dorman said...

I guess I have missed the solution then. And the statements were not radical by any means,just statements of faith. I don't understand the hold on the 'moderate muslim' thing when I do not speak of muslims at all. I speak of islam, two different things in the same vein as Botox. And no I am not purposely being difficult. I am stating directly the incongruous nature of many people's thinking on the subject and trying to understand why it is important for Joe Redneck to be so politically correct that they defend the creed of the enemy.

No nation on the planet except for America holds so dear the praise for its attackers' beliefs and contempt for itself. It confuses me.
London has it more correct than we ever did.

13:14  
Blogger drofub said...

I said the solution lies in the hands of the moderate muslims to take back their religion...

I was referring to you being difficult about the 'communism eliminated by guns' comment---nothing more...

I'm not aware of anyone that excuses the beliefs of our attackers...it is you that chooses to lump their beliefs in with all the divisions of islam...

15:14  
Blogger Ric said...

does the koran say that they should kill the infidel? if it does, is it repeated in numerous passages? I have never read the koran.

20:57  
Blogger drofub said...

I've never read the koran either but from all the info I've read about it I can without a doubt say that "yes", there are numerous passages stating that they should kill the infidel...but, just like the bible, there are numerous instances where it contradicts itself...and then there are passages that specify when you should kill the infidel---like when the infidel is attacking you...

sure, the koran is pretty violent, but not every muslim interprets it the same way...just like the bible is not interpreted the same way by every christian...some aspects are stressed more than others and some aspects are ignored altogether...

islam has been around a long time and theres roughly 1.5-2 billion members---clearly they're not all terrorists and eradicting the religion is not an option...this is not easy for some people to accept but when you consider that about 20-25% of the world's population is muslim you can only conclude that its here to stay...the only way for real change to happen has to start with its own members...maybe you've heard about a move toward a more secularized way of government in Iran (inspired by its younger citizens)---hopefully thats the first step for all of islam...

22:17  
Blogger Dorman said...

and I suggested that as part of a cure for islam in previous comments. But it IMHO only part of the solution.

My only standing question is this.... How can it be feasible to eliminate a philosophy from the minds of europeans by banning anything nazi, but unrealistic to do the same for a philosophy such as islam? Numbers are not a reason. Muslims are minority numbers in europe. Also, read up on the attitude of many many muslims in europe...not peaceful and assimilating. That is what I need a solution for, the subtle insidious spread of the foundation of terrorism. Christianity has no influence on the path of islam, just parallels it.

01:44  
Blogger drofub said...

are you actually suggesting that a ban on publicly praticing islam is the solution to the terrorism problem? even if you were right, how would it be possible?

in my mind you are comparing apples and oranges because the nazi movement involved a concerted effort to take over the world...yes there were "good" nazis as you put it, but they weren't running the proverbial show...islam is too fragmented...you can argue that the way the koran is written all muslims should share the same extremist views but that is not the case...the nazis had a clear purpose and a single leader calling all the shots...islam has neither or those...

11:38  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

11:46  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

One cannot make a blanket statement such as the "Nazis..made a concerted effort to take over the world" without knowing their reasoning behind it. The Nazis did not "just" want to take over the world. There was a reason. What was that reason??

11:49  
Blogger drofub said...

it doesn't matter what the reason was...the fact is that they acted on it...the radical muslims are acting on it but not all of the muslims are...I just don't understand people who lump other groups of people together as one without considering the individuality of those people...

13:54  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

As Dorman stated in his blog, so many people are only concerned with half truths and their opinions. Not facts and answers. Just as Dorman has repeatedly requested answers to his questions, I have asked a question and received an opinion. Dorman I can see why you're getting tired.
Drofub, you've lumped the Nazis just as everyone has lumped together Muslims/Islamics. Not all Nazis were "Nazis", not all Nazis wanted to take over the world, not all Nazis wanted to kill their neighbor or Jews. But, they are obviously different???????? And therefore the "reasoning" for Islamics/Muslims is unimportant as well.

14:15  
Blogger Dorman said...

Islam wasn't borne out of persecution,it waws spread by persecution. Mohammed conquered Mecca and Medina to force islam upon them in place of their money motivated polytheism. By the sword, not because of its intrinsic merit.

14:17  
Blogger Dorman said...

People judge nazis by their deeds, people excuse muslims by their apparent philosophy.

14:22  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

That's because people do not take the time to research the Nazi philosophy, but rather form an opinion based on pictures of bodies lying in mass graves and cachectic looking prisoners.

14:27  
Blogger drofub said...

hey, you guys aren't giving up on this either...don't assume you're the only ones feeling frustrated...

you guys can't stop stressing the philosophy issue and I feel the actions are the reason there is no comparison...

there are alot more muslims in the world than there ever were nazis...yet the nazis are the ones who committed the organized atrocities and military attacks to take over the world...as of today no such organized effort has been carried out by muslims and you cannot conclude that it will prior to it happening just because of some passages in the koran that modern day moderate muslims ignore...I'm not excusing radical muslims for their actions but just because their actions are done in the name of the same book that moderates follow doesn't make every muslim a terrorist...

15:41  
Blogger drofub said...

snotsucker--

are you arguing for nazis or against islam? just wondering...

17:08  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

My position at this time is irrelevant. But I will accept your astuteness as a compliment. I'm accomplishing what I set out to do, attempting to debate with facts rather than preformed opinions.

00:58  
Blogger Dorman said...

quote: "..as of today no such organized effort has been carried out by muslims"

Wow, where have you been? Weren't you able to see the evidence from the public beach near your house a few years ago? Also, ask Londoners what they think. It didn't take all of nazism to be involved in a death camp, it didn't take all of islam either. Oh and they have death camps too. Mass graves don't fill themselves.

06:34  
Blogger drofub said...

no such effort of the same scale...you know what I meant..


ask yourself 2 questions:

would a moderate muslim agree that islam is clearly directing him/her to kill the jews and take over the world?

would a moderate nazi at the end of WWII argue that the aims of the nazi party weren't to kill the jews and take over the world?

if you can accept the fact that islam is more subject to interpretation than what the nazi aims became you will have your answer...

06:53  
Blogger Dorman said...

again. it doens't matter what a moderate muslim thinks because he/she has interpretted the written literal word of Allah to a point beyond recognition. Moderate muslims by definition pick and chose what they want to obey (like my friends who smoke, drink, and screw), Allah commanded a real muslim to obey every thing in the Koran. The Koran, to muslims, is the actual words of Allah written down by Mohammed, not an interpretation thereof, nor some history covering thousands of years or records of oral traditions. This differs from the Christian and Jewish point of view that God spoke through prophets and that many of the prophets took signs to interpret what God's meaning and message was. The Koran is Allah speaking to muslims exactly like I am speaking to you all right now.

And yes, muslims have waged a longer 'war' with death tolls comparable to the Nazis. Convert or Kill the infidel is pretty straight forward when it is the actual words of your god. And the Jews have little to do with Nazis or muslims. They were victims of Nazis, sure, but the point of Nazism wasn't to wipe out the Jews, it was to eliminate them from Germany because they were scapegoats. The LindaSoG Blog may have more information on why Jews and muslims continue to fight.

Besides...what is the test do determine what a 'moderate muslim' is?

04:50  
Blogger SnotSucker said...

If there is no bomb in his shoe, or in his backpack, he is a moderate Muslim. Really, it's true. And if you twist your mind hard enough, you can convince yourself to believe anything.

08:02  

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